Advantages/Disadvantages over 2.6???
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DJT, I don't have time currently to explain the entire paper but let me make a few points to show the flaws of your logic. BTW, excellent paper. The problem is that it doesn't apply to our situation and it proves my point in the respects that it does apply.
Here's why it's not directly applicable to the ecotec.
1. They are running a motor on 100% alcohol. We are running gasoline engines.
2. The tests are not at the same RPMs we're concerned with (although I'm editing because some are)
3. They are not increasing boost as people are doing here. This entire discussion is about increasing boost by using water injection with some alcohol. The paper has a fixed rpm and boost.
Here's where it does apply and proves the people mocking me 100% wrong. Allow me to quote your paper:
"At fixed ignition timing, the increasing addition of water reduces engine output,"
"The reduction in efficiency at fixed ignition timing
may be attributed to a reduction in burn rate and also
combustion stability, as would be anticipated with the
addition of a diluent"
"a reduction of output
in the order of 2% is observed from E100 to E93h, and a
further reduction of 2% from E93h to E87h."
I hope that most of you can easily understand what the tech article my opposition posted is saying. With no other changes, water reduced engine power
Now, I know what comes next. Claim of increasing timing, boost, etc. the article has more which I can break down as it relates to the combustion process at 2k rpm vs what we're doing, varying boost pressures, running on all alcohol, etc. I'll get to it. for Now I hope that people will read that article before posting and making any more claims about water not lowering engine output.
-Good stuff-
How about another quote "The exhaust temperatures follow
trends observed previously up to 4000 rpm, whilst at 5000
rpm the temperature of E93h exceeds that of E100,
indicating the relative loss in efficiency."
Here's why it's not directly applicable to the ecotec.
1. They are running a motor on 100% alcohol. We are running gasoline engines.
2. The tests are not at the same RPMs we're concerned with (although I'm editing because some are)
3. They are not increasing boost as people are doing here. This entire discussion is about increasing boost by using water injection with some alcohol. The paper has a fixed rpm and boost.
Here's where it does apply and proves the people mocking me 100% wrong. Allow me to quote your paper:
"At fixed ignition timing, the increasing addition of water reduces engine output,"
"The reduction in efficiency at fixed ignition timing
may be attributed to a reduction in burn rate and also
combustion stability, as would be anticipated with the
addition of a diluent"
"a reduction of output
in the order of 2% is observed from E100 to E93h, and a
further reduction of 2% from E93h to E87h."
I hope that most of you can easily understand what the tech article my opposition posted is saying. With no other changes, water reduced engine power
Now, I know what comes next. Claim of increasing timing, boost, etc. the article has more which I can break down as it relates to the combustion process at 2k rpm vs what we're doing, varying boost pressures, running on all alcohol, etc. I'll get to it. for Now I hope that people will read that article before posting and making any more claims about water not lowering engine output.
-Good stuff-
How about another quote "The exhaust temperatures follow
trends observed previously up to 4000 rpm, whilst at 5000
rpm the temperature of E93h exceeds that of E100,
indicating the relative loss in efficiency."
When you take stuff out of context to fit your argument it appears right. The key there is fixed ignition timing.
"The
key differences arising from fuel water content are reduced
burn rate requiring advance in ignition timing, increased
fuel mass flow rate, a decrease in engine emissions of NOx
and increase of HC, and higher potential for increase of
compression ratio and output."
When ignition timing, if fixed, power output stays the same or drops a hair. When tuning or adding boost or compression is done there are gains seen. You were originally claiming that adding meth and retuning thru compression, boost, or timing provided no gains or a loss. That is what this was posted in response too. I do not recall disputing the claim that water alone with no change in tuning,compression, or boost will cause a loss. If it was taken that way it was a misunderstanding.
Also none of these are running pure alcohol. One is different version of ethanol, one is 87 with water in it and the other is 95 octane iirc.
I'd like some links please.
Last edited by djt81185; Jan 24, 2009 at 11:33 PM.
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Im kidding, He probably knows more than i do, so listen to what he has to say
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You were originally claiming that adding meth and retuning thru compression, boost, or timing provided no gains. That is what this was posted in response too. I do not recall disputing the claim that water alone with no change in tuning,compression, or boost will cause a loss.
I'd like some links please.
I'd like some links please.
b. You may not have, but others have posted in this thread that simply spraying water with no other changes will not decrease HP. There's a lot of people arguing, so sometimes separate arguments get crossed.
As far as links- scroll back through this thread.
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From: Horseheads, NY
a. Zoom has never claimed that meth can not increase power. He has stated time and time again that water or readily available washer fluid will not increase power. I can't understand how people interchange the three carelessly.
b. You may not have, but others have posted in this thread that simply spraying water with no other changes will not decrease HP. There's a lot of people arguing, so sometimes separate arguments get crossed.
As far as links- scroll back through this thread.
b. You may not have, but others have posted in this thread that simply spraying water with no other changes will not decrease HP. There's a lot of people arguing, so sometimes separate arguments get crossed.
As far as links- scroll back through this thread.
But water/meth will make power when tuned for. Just as meth alone or water alone can when tuned for. As the documents show. When not tuned for its useless/can hurt performance and output.
In the last post of Mine i meant meth plus water.
I don't recall anything substantial being posted. Seemed like a lot of talk without a whole lot of proof.
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From: Right here, Ohio
I have yet to see somebody spraying straight water
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From: Hamilton, Ont.
Well boys and girls I think I am going too try the 2.6 and see how it goes...I am running meth and a large HE + Redline waterweter so I should be ok.... +_ I don't race it much just a little here and there....The torque should help alot on the street...
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From: Maidstone, SK
Either way, I think I understand what Zooomer was getting at.
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From: Port Perry Ontario
I love my OTTP meth kit....works great...hp is there..
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From: Port Perry Ontario
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Modernceo
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