bates sleeved blocks
hes one of the guys i knew had issues danew is another one chris had the same issue danew had and it was because of how bates said to install the sleeves and didnt give them any "special" gasket
all im saying is people dont check and ask enough questions and then check again they assume to much most new engine failures are because assumed there is a guy on the redline forums that has a bates block and uses his raised sleeves and his custom cometic hg
Yeah..... Chris has had so much trouble with his car after getting the motor back from Bates...... He still has a head to block issue as the car is still losing water . It just sucks spending the cash to have one of the suposed best do your motor ......and having to basically tear into it after you get it back into the car . Bates didn't want to hear **** either ....almost like he had nothing to do with it lol
Sleeving your Ecotec block at this time is an absolutely horrible idea.
It's expensive, unreliable due to issues as posted here and in the end your block is much weaker in many ways.
It's expensive, unreliable due to issues as posted here and in the end your block is much weaker in many ways.
LSX RWD S/C conversion
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all im saying is people dont check and ask enough questions and then check again, they assume to much most new engine failures are because of assumptions. There is a guy on the redline forums that has a bates block and uses his raised sleeves and his custom cometic hg
I have had no issues with this block at all. I had no issues getting the work done and the block returned in a timely fashion. I did have 2 other local 'racing' machine shops look at doing the install and they declined because of the proper process that Bates instructed them to follow and they either weren't set up for it or they realized it was beyond their comfort/experience level.
I have also had the Bates & Darton sleeves side by side and from a unprofessional's opinion, the Bates sleeves look way more beefier. When installed there is more material making contact with the block from the Bates sleeves.
The bottom line is that most people sleeving their blocks are never going to reach the upper limits of either companies sleeves and the most important factor is the installation process itself. If the sleeves aren't done properly then the engine is bound to have problems.
A common problem I see when people are building engines, owners who want to save a few $$$'s by cheaping out on the process. While I understand the high cost of 'fast' I don't understand the save money and redo it it if it fails
.
and zoomer that is a true statement so when are you all going to offer just a girdled block that can be purchased
There are several issues with sleeving the block.
-It has a high chance of not being done right. As you see from many, many posts here on ss.net, sleeved blocks have a high failure rate. This can be burning oil, low performance, a motor that quickly wears out, piston skirt damage, cracked block and so forth. You can greatly reduce their #1 issue (improper install) by having one of a few select shops specializing with this who have experience with the Ecotec motor.
-Strength. Most people do not understand modification of a performance build. They believe that when a part fails, you replace it with a stronger part. Normally this part is 'beefier' than the OEM component. What 98% of consumers don't yet grasp is that 'fixing' something often moves a problem from one area to another. They then feel that this next problem needs to be 'fixed' with a beefier part. ZZP's success has been, in part, due to understanding that going fast is JUST as much about what you DON'T do as what you do. NOT replacing parts or 'upgrading' them can be the best mod you can do.
In the 3800 market, the transmissions didn't shift hard. So this was 'fixed' by shops removing the wave plates so the shifts would hit. After that, the input shafts broke so they were beefed up. Then the flex plates we're cracking so larger ones we're installed. Then the input shafts started failing again so larger ones were installed. There's more to it but the real issue was always that 'fixing' one problem created another. Think of it as drugs with side effects that you need to take other drugs for. Pretty soon you're taking 10 meds and can't remember what the original problem even was!
Anyway, back to the Ecotec sleeves. The OEM sleeves are extremely strong. They are steel, the problem is that they are completely unsupported at the area they receive the most stress. When breaking people thought the sleeves we're weak so they installed darton kits. Problem with Darton sleeves is that they destroy your block. The block becomes weak, cooling is greatly reduced, weight is increased. The picture below shows this on two blocks cut in 1/2. 1st, see the red between cylinders? that's from cracking where the block is cut so thin that it can't hold expansion contraction of steel sleeves which grow at a different rate. Alum is brittle. The lock tite went right inbetween cylinders into the cracks that the owner didn't even know were there. 2nd, look at the sleeve casing of the block and edges. That is all that is holding the block together now. You've cut HALF of the material holding the top and bottom of the block together. This is why high HP builds break them in 2 and have to be 'fixed' by running studs top to bottom.
Finally, there is cost. Darton sleeves cost nearly 700. Installation of them will bring cost well over a grand and even higher if done by a reliable shop. All to weaken your block, reduce cooling, and create potential issues. This used to be the only option. ZZP has corrected this entire mess with an affordable solution. The engine girdle. Original tried by GM, ZZP pioneered a process that eliminates the issues GM suffered when trying and ultimately giving up on this.
-It has a high chance of not being done right. As you see from many, many posts here on ss.net, sleeved blocks have a high failure rate. This can be burning oil, low performance, a motor that quickly wears out, piston skirt damage, cracked block and so forth. You can greatly reduce their #1 issue (improper install) by having one of a few select shops specializing with this who have experience with the Ecotec motor.
-Strength. Most people do not understand modification of a performance build. They believe that when a part fails, you replace it with a stronger part. Normally this part is 'beefier' than the OEM component. What 98% of consumers don't yet grasp is that 'fixing' something often moves a problem from one area to another. They then feel that this next problem needs to be 'fixed' with a beefier part. ZZP's success has been, in part, due to understanding that going fast is JUST as much about what you DON'T do as what you do. NOT replacing parts or 'upgrading' them can be the best mod you can do.
In the 3800 market, the transmissions didn't shift hard. So this was 'fixed' by shops removing the wave plates so the shifts would hit. After that, the input shafts broke so they were beefed up. Then the flex plates we're cracking so larger ones we're installed. Then the input shafts started failing again so larger ones were installed. There's more to it but the real issue was always that 'fixing' one problem created another. Think of it as drugs with side effects that you need to take other drugs for. Pretty soon you're taking 10 meds and can't remember what the original problem even was!
Anyway, back to the Ecotec sleeves. The OEM sleeves are extremely strong. They are steel, the problem is that they are completely unsupported at the area they receive the most stress. When breaking people thought the sleeves we're weak so they installed darton kits. Problem with Darton sleeves is that they destroy your block. The block becomes weak, cooling is greatly reduced, weight is increased. The picture below shows this on two blocks cut in 1/2. 1st, see the red between cylinders? that's from cracking where the block is cut so thin that it can't hold expansion contraction of steel sleeves which grow at a different rate. Alum is brittle. The lock tite went right inbetween cylinders into the cracks that the owner didn't even know were there. 2nd, look at the sleeve casing of the block and edges. That is all that is holding the block together now. You've cut HALF of the material holding the top and bottom of the block together. This is why high HP builds break them in 2 and have to be 'fixed' by running studs top to bottom.
Finally, there is cost. Darton sleeves cost nearly 700. Installation of them will bring cost well over a grand and even higher if done by a reliable shop. All to weaken your block, reduce cooling, and create potential issues. This used to be the only option. ZZP has corrected this entire mess with an affordable solution. The engine girdle. Original tried by GM, ZZP pioneered a process that eliminates the issues GM suffered when trying and ultimately giving up on this.
Finally, there is cost. Darton sleeves cost nearly 700. Installation of them will bring cost well over a grand and even higher if done by a reliable shop. All to weaken your block, reduce cooling, and create potential issues. This used to be the only option. ZZP has corrected this entire mess with an affordable solution. The engine girdle. Original tried by GM, ZZP pioneered a process that eliminates the issues GM suffered when trying and ultimately giving up on this.
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Joined: 05-01-06
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From: West Coast, FL
Darton sleeves in my car. Had Darton install them and very happy with their work, communication and turn-around. Originally had a Cometic H/G that lasted all of 1000 miles. Now at 4K on an OEM H/G and running great...
Basically, if you want their girdle, you'd have to purchase their motor, which isn't entirely a bad option if you ask me. I am planning on doing so once this motor goes on me.
you can't just buy a girdle from them and have some shop install it in your motor. It's a process to get it done right. They explained the process somewhat in their thread about their 900whp lsj build.
Basically, if you want their girdle, you'd have to purchase their motor, which isn't entirely a bad option if you ask me. I am planning on doing so once this motor goes on me.
Basically, if you want their girdle, you'd have to purchase their motor, which isn't entirely a bad option if you ask me. I am planning on doing so once this motor goes on me.
i have yet to hear one bad thing about darton.this is good.
i understand that. but i dont want all the other mumbo jumbo they offer. i have everything i need. just a block. darton installs sleeves for 600 and then another 685 or something like that for the sleeves.id rather do that since no one has problems with them...even with what zoomer is saying, no one seems to have had a problem with darton...or atleast no one has posted about it.
i understand that. but i dont want all the other mumbo jumbo they offer. i have everything i need. just a block. darton installs sleeves for 600 and then another 685 or something like that for the sleeves.id rather do that since no one has problems with them...even with what zoomer is saying, no one seems to have had a problem with darton...or atleast no one has posted about it.
Finally, there is cost. Darton sleeves cost nearly 700. Installation of them will bring cost well over a grand and even higher if done by a reliable shop. All to weaken your block, reduce cooling, and create potential issues. This used to be the only option. ZZP has corrected this entire mess with an affordable solution. The engine girdle. Original tried by GM, ZZP pioneered a process that eliminates the issues GM suffered when trying and ultimately giving up on this.
i would do that, but i dont see whats so affordable about it compared to darton, ive bought all my parts from zzp as it is, but i dont have the kind of cash to drop all that at once. id go with zzp if they could give me answers on it i guess..maybe ive missed some info on the girdle?
nevermind, i read something wrong on their website. but still having their engine with the girlde means you really don't need sleeves. All you would need is to just install the rods and pistons you already have, and be done with it.
i guess so, ive read the thread they posted. but got lost in it and couldnt keep up haha. i have talked to them awhile ago about it. and id have to go through them for the girdle...which is fine with me. i dont see where all the other stuff goes, i know machining is pricey, but they call it affordable. i guess my definition of affordable is less than zzp definition.
