meth...the big unknown
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From: Kearney, MO
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you are a tool!
He asked for info not a smart ass comment. If he wanted to gather info and piece it together and hope it was right he would. Thats why we have forums so we can discuss the things we dont know and get all the right facts from the people who do know and have done it. Why do we even have forums if all you are going to post is "search". How about you dont waste your time telling him to search and actually help.
He asked for info not a smart ass comment. If he wanted to gather info and piece it together and hope it was right he would. Thats why we have forums so we can discuss the things we dont know and get all the right facts from the people who do know and have done it. Why do we even have forums if all you are going to post is "search". How about you dont waste your time telling him to search and actually help.
Douche, if everyone asked these broad-ass questions all the time this forum would be flooded with pointless, redundant, and useless threads.
The question he asked would have taken 2 seconds on google. Details and hard to answer questions are what a forum is for. Questions that require specialized knowlege.
This thread is retarded and so are you for thinking that it wasn't. The guy did absolutely no research and therefore is a waste of time and server space.
i love how he nitpicks too..
We obviously are talking about mixing them together, then injecting... And so is everyone else... notice how hes the only one who says this? everyone else seems to ******* understand.
Washer Fluid = methanol with water... I know i have, extensivly, along with others, said not to use just straight washer fluid...
We obviously are talking about mixing them together, then injecting... And so is everyone else... notice how hes the only one who says this? everyone else seems to ******* understand.
Washer Fluid = methanol with water... I know i have, extensivly, along with others, said not to use just straight washer fluid...
You can run more timing without knock with the windshield wiper fluid then you can without it. You will also have lower iat2's when you run smaller pulleys resulting in power. It's power that was already there, you just weren't seeing it, so its a gain.
So you can gain power with washer fluid
So you can gain power with washer fluid
Clearly you guys are smart enough to realize and witness the massive confusion on this board. Everyone is saying different things, barely anyone is giving specific facts and I'm in here trying to nail down what you're saying. I'm debating with multiple people all saying different things, then some lying about what I"m saying to call me out on it (this is called a straw man argument and used often by Shortstack. Google it).
I'm too tired to get very technical, but it boils down to smaller pulley = higher cfm from increase in rotation of the rotors, producing higher pressure and heat. Cool it down and that equals more power.
Before someone tries to discredit me, there's more technicalities to it, but thats a layman's version
Before someone tries to discredit me, there's more technicalities to it, but thats a layman's version
Lowering the IATs can be done with water, CO2, alcohol, really a lot of things. The question is, does lowering the IATs make more or less HP. Well, it depends. If you only lower them and make no other changes (like with an intercooler) you'll gain power. Using something else like water to lower them makes the equation tricky, same with alcohol. Water reduces engine power, if we can agree on that fact alone I'll continue.
I would like to see more technical data as blueberry was kind enough to give. Specifically what happens to boost pressure and MAF freq with the addition of these kits. Then I can break this down further and we'll all be smarter for it.
Additionally, I would like you guys to hash it out between you whether water alone works or windshield washer fluid works. This seems to be a difference between the users of these kits, not related to me. I have NEVER stated that methanol doesn't work, in fact I cited a 5% gain on pure methanol with no other changes. I have stated that water and washer fluid don't work for purposes needed here. I then have users like short stack and others changing my words, reciting them for me as if they are quotes of mine, mocking me and then posting "LOL" as if to laugh at my ignorance. It's really frustrating to be in a forum trying to exchange technical information with this going on.
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Sure lower IATs add HP.... does it by itself.... NOPE... can you tune it to make your car make more power! ABSOLUTELY!
Zoooomer I am running -20* washer fluid plus 1 bottle of HEET which I have since day 1. Always with the same results. The lower the temperature protection rating the higher methanol content.
Now saying it's exactly a 50/50, 40/60 mix is really hard without the MSDS sheets. But by a rule of thumb most "MOST" -20* washer fluid brands are very close to a 50/50 mixture.
Zoooomer I am running -20* washer fluid plus 1 bottle of HEET which I have since day 1. Always with the same results. The lower the temperature protection rating the higher methanol content.
Now saying it's exactly a 50/50, 40/60 mix is really hard without the MSDS sheets. But by a rule of thumb most "MOST" -20* washer fluid brands are very close to a 50/50 mixture.
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Additionally, I would like you guys to hash it out between you whether water alone works or windshield washer fluid works. This seems to be a difference between the users of these kits, not related to me. I have NEVER stated that methanol doesn't work, in fact I cited a 5% gain on pure methanol with no other changes. I have stated that water and washer fluid don't work for purposes needed here. I then have users like short stack and others changing my words, reciting them for me as if they are quotes of mine, mocking me and then posting "LOL" as if to laugh at my ignorance. It's really frustrating to be in a forum trying to exchange technical information with this going on.
.... Water or washer fluid can only decrease power for the purposes here.
Water added to fuel slows the burn rate which has a similar effect of lowering ignition timing. This cannot be overcome by boost except in low RPM situations where lower timing doesn't cause such a loss in HP and parasitic blower losses are lower. So in theory, you could gain some torque but HP will always suffer over less boost and no washer fluid. We plan on doing a graphical chart in a manner that easy for new modders to understand shortly. Stay tuned...
Water added to fuel slows the burn rate which has a similar effect of lowering ignition timing. This cannot be overcome by boost except in low RPM situations where lower timing doesn't cause such a loss in HP and parasitic blower losses are lower. So in theory, you could gain some torque but HP will always suffer over less boost and no washer fluid. We plan on doing a graphical chart in a manner that easy for new modders to understand shortly. Stay tuned...
Face, meet Palm, Palm, meet Face
Just asking
Last edited by WickedSS2005; Jan 30, 2009 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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From: Raleigh, NC
Car: 2007 Cobalt SS/SC
Mods: 2.7, vibrant header/dp, Megan Catback, CXR H/E, and my tune!
POST WOT RUN!
My car: 2006 Cobalt SS/SC
Mods: 2.7, GMPP header, ZZP Downpipe, meth with 5gph nozzle, Cobra H/E, and my tune!
POST WOT RUN!
Mods: 2.7, vibrant header/dp, Megan Catback, CXR H/E, and my tune!
POST WOT RUN!
My car: 2006 Cobalt SS/SC
Mods: 2.7, GMPP header, ZZP Downpipe, meth with 5gph nozzle, Cobra H/E, and my tune!
POST WOT RUN!
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From: West Carrollton (Dayton), OH
Car: 2007 Cobalt SS/SC
Mods: 2.7, vibrant header/dp, Megan Catback, CXR H/E, and my tune!
POST WOT RUN!
[IMG]http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s149/mdub25200/27nocooling.jpg[IMG]
My car: 2006 Cobalt SS/SC
Mods: 2.7, GMPP header, ZZP Downpipe, meth with 5gph nozzle, Cobra H/E, and my tune!
POST WOT RUN!
[IMG]http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s149/mdub25200/matt27log.jpg[IMG]
Mods: 2.7, vibrant header/dp, Megan Catback, CXR H/E, and my tune!
POST WOT RUN!
[IMG]http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s149/mdub25200/27nocooling.jpg[IMG]
My car: 2006 Cobalt SS/SC
Mods: 2.7, GMPP header, ZZP Downpipe, meth with 5gph nozzle, Cobra H/E, and my tune!
POST WOT RUN!
[IMG]http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s149/mdub25200/matt27log.jpg[IMG]
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Tom I am well aware of that... I was just stating that it STILL produces alot of heat! Either way it's needed!
What Can I Say... My Car Is A Freak!
And Zoooomer I was mistaken it's 53* difference!
What Can I Say... My Car Is A Freak!
And Zoooomer I was mistaken it's 53* difference!
Last edited by 1badBlueberrySC; Jan 30, 2009 at 05:58 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Zoooomer I am running -20* washer fluid plus 1 bottle of HEET which I have since day 1. Always with the same results. The lower the temperature protection rating the higher methanol content.
Now saying it's exactly a 50/50, 40/60 mix is really hard without the MSDS sheets. But by a rule of thumb most "MOST" -20* washer fluid brands are very close to a 50/50 mixture.
Now saying it's exactly a 50/50, 40/60 mix is really hard without the MSDS sheets. But by a rule of thumb most "MOST" -20* washer fluid brands are very close to a 50/50 mixture.
http://www.nugentec.com/FAQ/Freezing...h%20Points.htm
A lot of fluid used is -5 deg which is about 22% methanol and 78% water.
Heet is 12oz of nearly pure methanol. This would raise a 1 gal bottle of the blue from 22% to 29% methanol roughly. Or a bottle of -20 from 33% to 39% methanol.
Now you said Mthanol, is that a 100% mix or 90/10 mix? You never stated so..........Most mixes people use are 50/50 to 70/30. Which people roughly achieved from no-additive washer fluid and adding HEET. You stated it doesn't work for benificial reasons and even stated it LOWERS overall HP.... you even said it in this thread........
Face, meet Palm, Palm, meet Face
Just asking
Face, meet Palm, Palm, meet Face
Just asking
The reason I didn't expound is because water does lower IATs and it allows more timing, and it allows more boost. If I left it at that or even posted that, people would say "SEE SEE, I told you it works" but this fails to address what we are really trying to do. This isn't a contest of how much timing or boost we can run. Ultimately what we care abou is performance. If we can agree that adding water to your engine lowers it's power output, then we can move on to discuss how much power is lost when you add water and how much is gained from boost/timing/lower IATs, etc.
Furthermore, when I say alcohol adds power at 100%, I wasn't talking about alcohol injection. I was referring to replacing your gas with alcohol. On our dyno we picked up 5% power with no changes switching to Ethanol over gasoline.
On the engine dyno, we lowered IAT approx 50 deg on an engine making ~250HP and with no other changes picked up 4HP. This was done with an intercooler so lower IATs can increase HP on thier own slightly. When we dropped 140 deg we picked up 16HP. Now this doesn't apply here because we're losing power from water being injected at the same time and density is affected by the airs humidity. So my point is only to illustrate the potential gains from a cooler charge (with no other changes or fluids added to the engine)
Blueberry, I appreciate the graphs but what would help is if you could put your collection bar at the same RPM on both logs so that the RPM on the left side matched up. Preferably close to redline and at 100% TPS. Then we can compare numbers directly.
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If it's -20, then it is 33% methanol and 67% water.
http://www.nugentec.com/FAQ/Freezing...h%20Points.htm
A lot of fluid used is -5 deg which is about 22% methanol and 78% water.
Heet is 12oz of nearly pure methanol. This would raise a 1 gal bottle of the blue from 22% to 29% methanol roughly. Or a bottle of -20 from 33% to 39% methanol.
You're not "just asking" or you wouldn't add comments about palms meeting faces. Anyway, as you can see, your data on meth content is incorrect. See data above. However, this doesn't matter because we haven't proven what % is needed so we're debating an unknown.
The reason I didn't expound is because water does lower IATs and it allows more timing, and it allows more boost. If I left it at that or even posted that, people would say "SEE SEE, I told you it works" but this fails to address what we are really trying to do. This isn't a contest of how much timing or boost we can run. Ultimately what we care abou is performance. If we can agree that adding water to your engine lowers it's power output, then we can move on to discuss how much power is lost when you add water and how much is gained from boost/timing/lower IATs, etc.
Furthermore, when I say alcohol adds power at 100%, I wasn't talking about alcohol injection. I was referring to replacing your gas with alcohol. On our dyno we picked up 5% power with no changes switching to Ethanol over gasoline.
On the engine dyno, we lowered IAT approx 50 deg on an engine making ~250HP and with no other changes picked up 4HP. This was done with an intercooler so lower IATs can increase HP on thier own slightly. When we dropped 140 deg we picked up 16HP. Now this doesn't apply here because we're losing power from water being injected at the same time and density is affected by the airs humidity. So my point is only to illustrate the potential gains from a cooler charge (with no other changes or fluids added to the engine)
Blueberry, I appreciate the graphs but what would help is if you could put your collection bar at the same RPM on both logs so that the RPM on the left side matched up. Preferably close to redline and at 100% TPS. Then we can compare numbers directly.
http://www.nugentec.com/FAQ/Freezing...h%20Points.htm
A lot of fluid used is -5 deg which is about 22% methanol and 78% water.
Heet is 12oz of nearly pure methanol. This would raise a 1 gal bottle of the blue from 22% to 29% methanol roughly. Or a bottle of -20 from 33% to 39% methanol.
You're not "just asking" or you wouldn't add comments about palms meeting faces. Anyway, as you can see, your data on meth content is incorrect. See data above. However, this doesn't matter because we haven't proven what % is needed so we're debating an unknown.
The reason I didn't expound is because water does lower IATs and it allows more timing, and it allows more boost. If I left it at that or even posted that, people would say "SEE SEE, I told you it works" but this fails to address what we are really trying to do. This isn't a contest of how much timing or boost we can run. Ultimately what we care abou is performance. If we can agree that adding water to your engine lowers it's power output, then we can move on to discuss how much power is lost when you add water and how much is gained from boost/timing/lower IATs, etc.
Furthermore, when I say alcohol adds power at 100%, I wasn't talking about alcohol injection. I was referring to replacing your gas with alcohol. On our dyno we picked up 5% power with no changes switching to Ethanol over gasoline.
On the engine dyno, we lowered IAT approx 50 deg on an engine making ~250HP and with no other changes picked up 4HP. This was done with an intercooler so lower IATs can increase HP on thier own slightly. When we dropped 140 deg we picked up 16HP. Now this doesn't apply here because we're losing power from water being injected at the same time and density is affected by the airs humidity. So my point is only to illustrate the potential gains from a cooler charge (with no other changes or fluids added to the engine)
Blueberry, I appreciate the graphs but what would help is if you could put your collection bar at the same RPM on both logs so that the RPM on the left side matched up. Preferably close to redline and at 100% TPS. Then we can compare numbers directly.
WRONG. Water does NOT add more timing/boost. METHANOL allows you to run more timing. I am going to give you FACTS now that you asked for them, and you can give me my 1000 dollars for proving you wrong. Let me explain it really simple. Running STRAIGHT washer fluid allows you to up your timing a couple degrees, that couple of degrees amounted with the lower iat2's is a power gain.
Now, for the next step. Spraying STRAIGHT water will NOT make you lose power, however you will not GAIN any NOTICEABLE power. Unless you are doing MULTIPLE back to back runs on the dyno, I don't see a power gain happening, I should know as I have tried it. But the main fact here is that spraying just straight water does NOT lower your power out put.
I don't know why you are trying to argue with methanol/water injection. The main reason why people run water/methanol injection is so they can increase there timing/run more boost safely/have lower iat2's. With that being said when you have a proper tune there are gains to be had from increasing timing and lowering iat2's. This gain is HIGHER then any loss you might think there would be from spraying water into the motor, but I can tell you that spraying just straight water will NOT lower your power.
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Not everyone has direct access to methanol like you Stu...
I however cannot... but I did find out that 5 bottles of heet roughly equals 1/2 gallon albeit expensive but for those that cannot get it...
Zooooomer I can get equal RPM sheets... you'll just have to wait untill I get home from work!
Area we had this discussion, and you are correct my MSDS sheet on the brand I carry at Home Depot is higher than 33%!
And Stu if you can get it... can you get me a couple gallons and ship it to me? I have no one CLOSE at all that I can get pure methanol from!
And I'll pay ya of course!
I however cannot... but I did find out that 5 bottles of heet roughly equals 1/2 gallon albeit expensive but for those that cannot get it...
Zooooomer I can get equal RPM sheets... you'll just have to wait untill I get home from work!
Area we had this discussion, and you are correct my MSDS sheet on the brand I carry at Home Depot is higher than 33%!
And Stu if you can get it... can you get me a couple gallons and ship it to me? I have no one CLOSE at all that I can get pure methanol from!
And I'll pay ya of course!
Last edited by 1badBlueberrySC; Jan 31, 2009 at 01:03 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost