i would go with ott IMO

 

thanks for that; I am sure Josh and Sean appreciate that. They are two young guys working hard to do well in a difficult market...

GM build book chapter 1 page 13 "If you’re building a performance Cobalt, it is a
good idea to install solid engine mounts that
rotate the engine forward and then shim the
steering rack (shown) up to straighten the halfshafts
and minimize bump steer, respectively"

 

why i always bought from them

 

QRL, the fact stands that you were claiming 17 degrees of shaft angle. A more realistic measurement is 6 degrees on a lowered Cobalt. The actual parallel misalignment on my car is 1.5", which is about 6 degrees on the shaft. We don't need someone else's numbers when we own these cars and we can measure them at any time. Furthermore, if we went with your numbers, we would get nowhere because you were way off on the only numbers you stated.

You also claim that CV joints can handle axle angle, but can not handle verticle misalignment? Axle angle is the direct result of verticle misalignment and one can not exist without the other, so your statement does not make sense.

Here's the funny thing about the claims made concerning this product. As you said, a stock suspension Cobalt has the axles running slightly downward. A lowered Cobalt has upward angle to the axles. Considering that OTT is selling the same mounts to people with stock suspension or lowered Cobalts, how could they possibly "rotate the engine and trans to align the axles" as it says on the site? But that doesn't matter, right? It only matters that they tell you that it will do something good for your car, and people will buy them. Or maybe they are magic mounts that figure out if your car is lowered and then move the engine to the right angle.

 

The mounts aren't designed to fix axle mis-alignment on lowered cars, that is a fallacy. Vertical alignment wouldn't matter as it's a variable, depeneding on ride height, load, road surface, spring/shock setup...... If you look into your wheel well you will see that the inside cv is either higher or lower than the outside, this is normal. Now you will also see the inside and outside cv's don't line up on a horizontal plane, the inside joint will be further forward. This is the mis-alignment we are correcting.

 

in for reading since I'm bored at work

 

Matt hard to believe smart guys like you and zoomer make these comments. Read the build book picture supplied Chapter 1 page 13. Hard for you to read I am sure as it is not well expressed.

The mounts "rotate the engine and trans to align the axles." yes. If you cant see that with the cars you have in your shop you are either being stupid or just trying to start an e fight. Sucks to be you. I am done with your silly attempts to start an e fight. Over and out.

 

all I know it was a bitch to get them in with the solid upper mount on the car, engine did move quite a bit.

but I did figure out the perfect way to rotate the engine straight up and move it forward for perfect alignment.
Auto swap ftw! lol.

 

The only thing that rotating the engine could do is change the vertical alignment of the axles. You would have to move the engine forward or back to change horizontal misalignment.

I am really starting to question your knowledge on the subject. I gave you the exact measurement of vertical misalignment from my car (1.5") and the shaft angle (6 degrees) and then you say, "If you cant see that with the cars you have in your shop..." Then you go on to ignore the fact that some cars would need to have the engine rotated one way and some cars would need to have it rotated the other way. You aren't proving anything at all.

Aside from any of that, why does the vendor that sells these mounts say one thing a few posts up and then you say another? Do they rotate the engine to align the axles vertically or do they move the engine forward a little to align the axles horizontally?

 

This would be true if the axle was in the exact center of the engine or the axis of rotation. Since they are on the far outside rotation an upward movement of the rear mount will cause the inside cv to move back towards the firewall. Think of a crankshaft, if the rod journal is the cv and the main journal is the axis of rotation.

 

I already apologised for my error re "vertical" and "horizontal" a few posts ago. Stop the crap and read Fast 98's post. The exact # of degrees does not matter. The rotation of the OTTP mount is evident. Same for the GM racing mounts I made for Grand Am race cobalts Everyone can see it. except you.

 

I understand this completely, but we should also be able to agree that the axle moves upward more than backward when you rotate the top of the engine forward. Rotating the engine would do very little to correct horizontal misalignment.

Yes, you switched to say horizontal, yet you keep talking about rotating the engine. Rotating the engine does very little to change horizontal misalignment. Combine the fact that you can't rotate the engine very far and the results are insignificant concerning a change in horizontal misalignment.

 

The axle does move up also. I don't know by how much but I would still disagree. I think the axle moves back further than it moves up. I only say this because the inner cv is just before it's lowest point in its arc of movement.

 

qwik: it does I am glad I have a Redline more room. Option B hoses are a bitch to route on a Cobalt as well the tie bar is so close.

I cant imagine getting to the hold down allen bolts on a TVS Cobalt. I would stud those right qwik...[/QUOTE]



kyle1853: yeah i wish i had a redline for that reason and others to ..but i should still be able to do it right just a little less room? and what do you mean i would stud those right?

 

here for the show .....where's the popcorn?

 

^^ I've been sitting here eating popcorn for awhile, so I suppose I'll share

John means that he would use studs to hold down the supercharger instead of using the allen head bolts that come factory. The studs would be easier to tighten in the limited space. I have the rotated mounts and a TVS, and it's not toooo bad on a Cobalt. You just need to tighten the bolts on the bottom with a small-ish allen key. I don't know of any stud applications off the top of my head, but I'd assume someone makes an application that will fit.

 

lol ok so it can be done just with a little more sweat......and my other question is since im just skimming and dont understand a lot of the lingo going on in the post lol when i put these mounts on.....will lowering the car afterwards effect anything here or possibly make it more prone to wheel hop?

 

I checked the horizontal misalignment on my car and it is 5/8". This comes out to about 2.75 degrees on the axle shaft. I'm still waiting to hear where QRL came up with 17 degrees.

Now this brings us to our next step-
Since the axle does swing in an arc when you rotate your motor, and close to a straight vertical line when you move the suspension, I drew up a diagram showing the movement of the inner and outer CV joints. It is interesting that when you take into consideration how much the engine moves and how much the suspension moves under power, you can see that there will be vastly different results from rotating the engine between a stock ride height Cobalt and a lowered Cobalt. This is something that I never see discussed and it is exactly the type of issue that Zoom brings up. When a vendor is selling a product with claims that it simply fixes your car in a one-size-fits-all mentality, then the community will not advance. When no one really knows what it does or why, or if they even need it, the results will be random.

 

It all fits. I have the TVS. I used an allen socket with a swivel attachment. Worked really well actually.

 

Yeah i want to know if i can lower my car after i put these on...or if it would be better to leave it stock?

 

I had on em on my car when it was slammed on coil overs (tires tucked) and it was fine, drove it like that for 2 years commuting to manhattan

 

zzp over ottp anyday

 

the top of the engine does not rotate nearly as much as the bottom trans mounts. the pivot point is centered between the engine mount and the upper trans mount, and the lower trans mounts rotate.
I know my posts may not be super technical, but i have a good grasp of how it works given much experience working with not only the rotated mounts but also the driveline.

 

I think my DP will hit the underside of my car if I use the rotated mounts as it is tight now.....but I don't really have wheelhop issues as I don't think im a drag racer and I have driver mod lol

Also anything to do with handling suspension traction cooling etc. Just step aside John's been there done that and is still doing it.

Straight line stuff I'll give the tip of the touque to zzp around here.

 

No one is going to step aside because John makes some claim of 17 degrees of misalignment and claims that these mounts will fix that. We have designed and built radical new front suspension systems that others say "won't work" and made them work well. You guys need to remember that ZZP is not a 1 or 2 man operation. We have multiple departments covering everything from product development, testing, machining, fabricating, installation, racing, evaluation, and finally sales. We prefer to educate the community and help customers make proper modding decisions when many other vendors would rather simply sell whatever product is most convenient.

I removed the lower mount bolts on my car to check this out further. After doing so and looking closely, I will admit that the intermediate shaft does move front to back more than I expected when the motor is rotated on the top mounts. Having said that, there is still an issue here. When OTT sells a mount kit that uses a spacer under the rear mount, the bolt hole moves straight up. Since the bracket attached to the trans moves backwards as it moves up, you end up having to pry the motor forward to get the bolt in. This negates most of rearward movement that was the whole purpose of adding these mounts to begin with!