the front bottom trans mount shifts down while the back raises up allowing it to rotate. with the upper engine and trans mount bolts loosened up to prevent preload the bolts should go in fine. i think i just rocked the motor a bit until all things settled equally.

 

so what mounts do you have?

 

i have ottp stage 2 one of the very first sets made. and i recently got a new set of the upgraded machined ones that look so nice.

 

On the stage 1 with the stock rear mount the stock bushing deflects and allows the movement to happen, the more solid front mount allows the engine to be located firmly. On the stage 2 mounts the rear mount has a different bushing location so the mounts won't bind. Because of this setup, stage 2 does rotate the engine slightly further than stage 1, I'm going to guess about 1/4" difference.

 

The reason I asked for specific measurements is because I'm calling you out. I do not believe you have any. I don't believe you understand what these mounts do or don't do or what the car misalignment is or really any math regarding this discussion at all. The entire subject is math and science and that's why I'd like to discuss numbers. Generally someone who doesn't understand a topic will cite non-evidence as evidence and then claimed they proved something. You did just that.

-Bob has them and it cured his wheel hop
-GM is a larger company than ZZP. You're a joke compared to their engineers
-So and so runs 7's and I got the info from him, maybe you should go ask him
-I'm not revealing my secrets
-Take this to PM, no one wants to hear us argue

And so on. None of that is information and none of it is evidence, none of it helps or educates anyone. It's just random banter to try and add credibility to a debate in place of facts, math, and science.

As Matt pointed out, there is a major issue with what your claiming because of the changes on lowered cars. Again, a customer just wants a part that works and if the OTT mounts work for them then great. However the ZZP mounts are working great too and we aren't making false claims about them. We discussed for 2 weeks about how to market our product. Do we A. give out honesty and sell a competitive product for a competitive price or do we B. Setup the wording on the product to match our competitors misleading verbage because it's less confusing to the customer?? It's a real question. Clearly one we're going after in this discussion. But in the end, we are tryign to advance this community and educate people with good information and honest debates citing our information which is why Matt has listed so many details about the cars.

 

ummm, yeah.

this is going to get ugly, but I"m bored, so banter on.

 

It doesn't need to get ugly. We just like to see accurate information passed around. When someone states that there is 17 degrees of misalignment and I can't see that there is and he continues on by saying, "You can't see that?" What do I do? I pull my car in and measure. Guess what? It's less than 3 degrees. This proves that what we are saying is correct. Do the OTT mounts rotate the motor? Yes. Do they rotate it very far? No. Does rotating the motor help? Yes, but not as much as simply firming up the bushings so that the motor can not rotate back under power. That should really be the end of the discussion.

To add to the variables here...

After closely reviewing videos and performing more tests, it appears that any measurements taken in the shop are going to be nearly insignificant in real-world situations.

The downward slope of the axles is more than eliminated while under power based on the lift of the front of the car. this means that Cobalts that aren't lowered are suffering from serious misalignment in the other direction under hard launches.

The horizontal misalignment is affected in two separate ways at the same time under power. As the control arm bushings compress and the tire moves forward in the wheel well, the 5/8" horizontal misalignment or 2.75 horizontal degrees of the axle shaft is diminished significantly, if not completely. However, once again, if you have soft or worn out bushings, then the engine will rotate back and add the horizontal misalignment back into the equation.

In conclusion, there are 3 completely separate, undesireable movements taking place simultaneously(and in completely different directions) which all need to be taken into consideration when making adjustments to the motor mounts and/or suspension.

 

Very noble. Advance the community? Get me mad and have me post drawings? I did once, and deleted them. Yes, I have drawings, pictures, working with GM on this project. I am totally not going to post them. You figure it out.
I have never said that rotated mounts are needed " because of the changes on lowered cars. " as you state. But now Matt says : the mounts rotate the motor a little" and you Zoomer says " they dont rotate the motor. " Make up your minds.

But as a matter of fact, while you throw crap around and matt calls me out on 17 degrees (could be a zillion, dont matter) I had to fix a customers ZZP two bolt down pipe flange because it was leaking the other day. I fixed it. Its not a bad flange. Its not a great one. There are better flanges out there though, and if you truly wanted to "advance this community" you would make a better one.

 

OHHHH BOY, the claws have came out and it has gone that far....now we wait for the excitment

 

oh hai. i can haz post?

 

^lewks like u already haz post

 

lol, lets just talk about something different to try to further confuse people... As far as making better flanges, we have and we do.

So now it doesn't matter if it's 17 degrees? Then why post that it is? We are clearly responding to those types of claims. Don't just try to say that it doesn't matter if your facts are correct, or even close for that matter. It is important because once you post information, it is there for years to come and people will find the thread and believe the information if no one corrects you.

 

i still don't understand how someone is saying the two side mounts will not allow the motor to rotate forward/backwards by modifying the front and back mounts...

it's not like the side mounts are solid metal lol

 

I don't know. The rotated mounts have been proven on race applications and everyone who has bought them and installed them properly has had zero issues solved there problems. OH and little to no vibes. So what do you need figures for?

 

What really amazes me is how you ignore my post here-
...and then you go after Zoom with the typical- "You figure it out." as if there is something on the car that we can not figure out. The only thing we can't figure out is how someone could believe that moving the mount a certain amount is supposed to be the correct amount for all Cobalts. As I stated above, there are many variables. The same movement is not beneficial on all cars.

After careful evaluation, we have found my car to have the intermediate shaft almost perfectly centered under high-torque situations. This means that installing OTT mounts on my car would make the geometry worse and therefore have an adverse affect on performance. Once again, I'm not saying this would be the case on all cars. However, it is important for people to understand that these mounts are not the cure-all that some would like them to believe.

The stock mounts have also been proven on race applications, as have the ZZP mounts.

No, not everyone who installed OTT mounts correctly had zero issues. Zoom posted a link a couple pages back where people were talking about still having issues. We have also had a few people contact us for tech support or sometimes just to vent about how their OTT mounts did nothing for them.

 

This is the first time I have seen two vendors (I'm new here, but assume both parties are vendors) go at it, not to mention bash each other's products. I just ordered a stg 2 from ottp, and when I asked a simple question about these mounts, get blown off. I've been drag racing for over a decade now and have spent a lot of hard earned money on aftermarket parts. To see such unprofessionalism concerns me in regards to who I'm sending my $$ to. Might want to drop this guys. Ya'll are getting over most member's heads anyway. Just saying.

 

Incorrect. I'd have to look back on my track logs to see which configuration was pushing more boost, but with both top/front/rear poly and the OTTP rotated mounts I did experience wheel hop in 1st gear until I started pulling boost to compensate. Many others still have hop as well.

And yes, I installed them correctly. Even PM'ed/Emailed John directly to make sure I was doing it right.

On the positive side, they feel much better (vibration wise) than a full solid mount setup so I have no desire to go back.

 

OTTP and ZZP have gone at it many times in the past, but personally, I'm all for it. It forces both of them to be technical, and to prove that their products work, and gets all flaws or product errors or anything else like that in the open. After reading this thread, i can definitely say i am more informed about the cobalt's wheel hopping, and the OTTP mounts. All i knew previously was that the hopping was due to misaligned axles, but i had no idea which direction was misaligned, had never taken wheel lift or lowering setups into consideration, etc. These debates force both vendor's hands and allow us as buyers to see pros and cons with both products.

Ive accepted that it is very unprofessional looking (some people more than others...one on each side the most), but I'm fine with that as I know both companies fight reverently to maintain their products reputation and ensure they have the best product. It helps the buyer see exactly what you are buying, and at the end of the day, dealing with both of these companies has never left me disappointed. I had plenty of ZZP products and a few OTTP products as well, and my buying experiences have been great. If i had to put labels to them, I would say ZZP dominates the drag scene and the power production scene, whereas OTTP's forte is more in the suspension and handling department (a la powell). Both have cross over though, so dont get me wrong there.

/end synopses

 

if someone can make something for a 2.4 ill buy it.. sucks being turboed and having problems with wheel hop. luckily i have turbo lag haha...

 

Get radials, nub. That's my next step.

 

Very good point. I definitely see what you're saying. Its a first for me to see two vendors debate, so it struck me as being a little strange/unprofessional. In their defense, they haven't gotten exactly personal in this thread and have mostly stayed on topic. Definitely informative, but creates some doubt and/or skepticism in regards to the effectiveness of these mounts. They were on the top of my list, but now I'm a bit hesitant..... at least until someone shows some definite proof that they do what they claim to do.

 

Stage 2 OTTP/Powell mounts.

I went from stock to these. In 1st gear on the stock mounts i couldn't even spin shitty 215 all seasons. It would hop all day long, even just rolling into it gently.

Now with the stage 2's, i can roast my 235 Nitto NT-05's with no hop at all. It'll keep spinning right into second.

If i'm able to spin a wider, more aggressive tire without hop on these mounts, i'd say they do their job.

 

Matt,

You guys seem to have a very simple OP at zzp. Attack and do anything you can to disprove the other vendors products. I would imagine this has worked quite well for you in the grand prix market and could be a reason for your success.

One thing i would like to call out after reading into all this, is if you could show me where on our site we advertise this mount as a be all end all, one size fits all mod? Im 100% positive you won't find that becuase that was never there. What sold this product is the fact that it was used by gm as a solution and it works very well, just ask the customers who have it. If it didn't work it would have died off just like poly cabs or some other crap product.

I noticed you removed the gen 1 front mount to? Any reason for that (just out of curiosity).

My question is to you since you guys seem to have this figured out so well. Why were you selling mounts for 4 years prior if you knew of this inherent problem? Was it just not a big issue until your sales dropped and you needed an angle to work on the comp?

Side note about the customers coming to you about the rotated mounts not working. I personally find that funny because generally we do a pretty good job with emails and phone calls over here for tech support and i have never taken a call like that. I guess its possible though we had two x zzp customers by just this week with problems with your products and support.

 

Actually, the tires may be a significant contributing factor in your example.

Hop is caused by the tires getting then losing traction repeatedly. Spin means the wheels aren't losing traction to the same degree that causes hop.

When you stop hopping and start spinning, it's a sign that your tires are able to better hold traction, which is expected with a wider, more aggressive tire. The mounts are helping over stock, but your tires may also be a large part of it.

Informative article here:
http://www.mc2racing.com/tech/20061012a/index.html

 

Your site says that your mounts align the axles. Since this is not always true, and because there is much more at stake, it is deceiving.

Our mounts improve performance by decreasing movement, not by altering the starting point. Selling our product in no way contradicts our statements here.