the f20c didnt exist till 99'. however it is 1997cc's.

 

zzp gtfo, they are only good with boosted engines anyway

 

fixed. thot it was 1997, should have double checked. still though... haha

 

lol

yeah zoomer as a comapny owner u should be all over this......... but instead u stick to its not possible on pump gas???? really this is what a performance parts compay owner says??? u sir are wrong. 200 whp with the right parts and tuning should be obtainable with the 2.2 no problem. i wish i owned one so i could prove u wrong. instead of stepping up and saying i can do it and ill make the parts to support it, u stick to primarily the super charged cars where bigger gains are to be seen with individual performance parts vs the NA cars. doesnt sound like ur to much into performance scene as u are the making money scene by getting it from all those lsj owners.


mike

 

^ youre exactly right. btw are you porting nwae's head? that would be awesome bcuz if he doesnt prove 200whp this go round, with a ported head it will definitely happen

 

I agree. Someone skilled should be able to make 200 wheel easy, like real easy. Its just not my thing because for the same investment I'm making an easy 250 with the blower (to make more is the big money gap because of internals, duh). If I was given say a cobalt and 20 grand I'd have you a pump gas 300 hp n/a car. It'll likely be e85 but it'd be completely do able. Of course that 300 hp would be made right before redline, the car would be an absolute dog below 7000 rpm's and it would likely have no hood because some sort of insane intake manifold would be required that has basically no chance of clearing the hood.

 

That motor is a better design than the ecotec. For one, it's 11.7:1 compression vs. 10:1 which is a large advantage and shaving the head 20 thou doesn't close that gap very much. 2nd, it has variable valve timing which the 2.2 doesn't have, 3rd it has low friction internal components, again not present here. 4th it spins to 9k rpm which earlier it was said redline here was 7500. 5th, the intake runners on the Honda are tuned for maximum HP at a given rpm, matched with the cams. This engine has zero intake runner tuning respective to displacement and cam selection.

 

ZZP holds many NA records and we are very skilled with NA performance.
I didn't say 200WHP couldn't be done. I said it cannot be done with the constraints of
1. Not spinning to 10k rpm as Matt said woulkd be needed.
2. Pump gas which limits compression

Of course 200WHP can be done, it has before at this displacement. If you built a 14:1 motor and ran it on ethanol, installed large cams, removed the balance shaft, upgraded the rods, removed the mechanical water pump, built a tuned intake, it would surpass 200 pretty easily. But why would anyone do this when the costs involved are far greater than adding boost? They wouldn't which is why no one has but hundreds are adding boost.

But this discussion was doing 200 NA and then changed to 'you wouldn't have to rev to 10k' and the OP said 7500 rev limiter and discussed his mods. I'm saying that the physics do not support anywhere near 200WHP with the mods and setup being discussed.
------------
You guys seem to have a lack of understanding of how engines and performance mods work. A ported head does not create any more power until you reach an rpm at which the head is a restriction. If you increase runner volume to increase head flow, performance below a given rpm will be reduced.

A cam increasing duration will lower performance down low and give you HP up top.

Shorter runners make more HP up top, long runners like what we have stock on a 2.2/2.4 will choke off performance up top at some point.

Since HP is a factor of air moved, less pumping loss and friction, you have to spin an engine to a certain rpm to get a certain HP. And to make more HP, you have to spin it faster which means larger cams and higher flowing heads to support that. However as you pass the tuned frequency of the intake, the amount of HP reduction from the intake runners will increase. Also as rpm increases, so does frictional and pumping losses. So even one component not matched for what you're doing will make the entire build very limited.

 

-grabs my popcorn, chair and arizona grapeade drink-

 

here a dyno shop in QC that tune honda and ecotec.

K20
YouTube - Precision Auto K20a blueprint dyno tuning

tune a Stock SI 2006 with a Hytech header, 216 whp
YouTube - Precision Auto Honda Civic SI 2006 dyno tuning with the New Honda Flashpro

2.4
YouTube - Precision Auto Dyno tuned Cobalt SS LE5 2.4L 2007

2.2 cammed
....... to far to me. over 350km

 

as much as i hate to agree with him, for the most part he's right. everyone keeps thinking they're going to be able to easily make 200whp with some aftermarket parts and blah blah blah. it's simply not that easy.

i stick to my original statement. shoot for your 200whp. you can definately hit it, and the car MAY still be ok to drive around on the street. go for much more and it will be absolutely worthless everywhere other than a 1/4 mile track.

 

This I agree with 100%

I'll admit I'm not versed on what or where either the 2.2L or 2.4L intake maxes out... but since matching parts is key, I would think that a custome short runner intake something like this one would do the trick;



or if one akin to that doesn't work you could always step up to something like this one;


and I do know that the crazier the n/a built gets, the more it takes away from streetability... been there done that.

 

i find it hilarious people thing he wont hit 200whp.. when he hit 185 whp on a terrible tune and a worse exhaust setup.. and no ported head... and a 7k redline

200 whp is definitely doable on pump gas.. on a 2.2 .. without getting ridiculous.. 300 is crazy .. that wont happen without ridiculous work/ custom parts / research and alot of money

 

again...i agree to make higher then 200 its going to take some serious work...but to hit the 200 mark...isnt as hard as your all making it out to be.

thanks mang thats EXACTLY what im saying!!!!!!!
if it werent for this fact...I would agreew ith everyone esle..but really...its way to hard to believe I wont make it with what I was at before...

 

itb's could actually hurt the performance of the car without the proper supporting mods. which no one on this board or any other eco board for that matter is anywhere even close to needing (srry, i guess i should say 99.99% of people would not need them). not to mention what it would take to tune itb's. it would almost be a step in the wrong direction.

as far as that 2.3 manifold goes, i remember seeing someone once, who actually matched that to an l61. i just can't remember where i saw it, it requires a bit of customizing to fit, and a phenolic spacer to bring iat's down. again, almost a step in the wrong direction. either go with the 2.4 eco manifold on a 2.2 or get some insane bird catcher.

 

then i chalk it to inflated dyno numbers. these motors are like 125whp stock. if your dyno says 135whp stock, then its a high reading dyno. simple as that.
Were talking about almost doubling our power here...not easy to do without adding atmospheres.
is it impossible? hell no. roush made 340bhp on an NA 2.4, so it isnt impossible, but using off the shelf (namely OEM) parts and still being streetable to get there is no easy feat.
I still think he should go for it, but im just not as optimistic about the numbers as he is. nothing more

the brits use em on their vauxhall's. Its mad expensive IIRC

 

even if he was putting down 175 whp it's still reasonable that with a better tune.. ported head and such he will crac over 200 whp

 

not really. the tune would have to be world's, literally world's better than it was. the p+p head will help absolutely. but again, more of a complimentary mod. not something that you do and think "alright i just got another 20 hp" . it's to help overall flow of the engine, not add 100 hp like a turbo or something. and again, if it's a heavily ported head, which you might as well go with, it's going to end up shifting the power band up high. leading back to the "overall unstreetableness" (lol) of the car.

 

200 is possible.. another person i know without cams or tune put down 170 whp on a mustang dyno its an 04 ion

tune wouldnt have to be worlds better... he wqs running mid 11safr instead of mid 13s a full 2 point af increase will greatly help lol

 

again. im not pretending it isnt possible. Jbody guys have hit 200whp NA before... its not exactly pioneering

 

not with an eco.

 

you right .. it's been done on a less efficient engine

 

lol, that's a bold statement sir. especially since karo at carcustoms.net and allecotec.com took that "less efficient" engine and smashed through 200 whp n/a, and if i remember correctly even went past 250whp n/a, and if he didn't it was damn close. yup i'd call that less efficient.

who here has made a 250 whp n/a eco again? oh that's right........

 

No he didn't. Simple reason is that that motor with those mods doesn't make 175WHP on a terrible tune and poor exhaust with 7k redline.


What happens in an inexperienced market is that someone finds a dyno that gives them a number and they based everything they talk about on that number. They want to believe it so they do. Experienced users don't do this. They say 'this motor shouldn't be making that # so I'm betting the dyno is reading high' and then they recheck at another dyno. Despite what people believe, motors aren't magic. Their is no such thing as a 'factory freak' or 'freak' in general where a motor makes 10%+ more power than others with the same mods.

and before you get angry, just think about it. You took a 125 HP setup and did what to add 50HP? intake exhaust and tuning? sorry, doesn't happen. try about 10-15.

 

HoW CAN YOU SAY THAT "IT SHOULDNT BE READING THIS HIGH"
ZOOMER. YOUR A FRACKING IDIOT! SINCE NO ONE HAS DONE THIS WE CANT SAY "IT SHOULDNT BE THIS OR THAT"
God your so close minded. Go build one yourself, same exact mods and if it makes a million hp less then ya, we can say...****...eveyrone else with these mods didnt make this why am I?
NO ONE ELSE HAS THIS SETUP>>>end of discussion on that! MAYBE 2-3 other people that are on this board are running stage 2 cams...MAYBE! and none of them have a shaved head, or full bolt ons that I know of and have dynod.
What an EXPERIANCED person does is use the same damed dyno every time because it gives an accurate representation of the changes..and **** THATS ALL DYNO NUMBERS ARE GOOD FOR!!!! Unless we ALLL dyno our cars same day on same dyno, comparing numbers really doesnt mean JACK **** AN DYOU SHOULD KNOW THAT!

so quite bein an ass hat and trying to win an argument that will ONLY be solved when I get a call fromt he dyno shop! and hate to break it to you. This dyno shows a few numbers low on quite a few cars. Buddy had a 2.2 ecotec with the M62 kit, was running low 14's with it and was showing 205whp.

And exactly to what elecblue06 was saying. a full 2+ points of AFR in the rich will make your numbers SUPER low!

Bottom line...we dont have a large amount of history for this motor to go on and say "these people all made this....so he is just on a happy dyno" you can compare what hasnt been done to what should or shouldnt happen...

oh, and for the record, on many ecotec motors, people have seen 20-50 whp increases from a good port and polish if they have EVERYTHING else setup and that has been the restriction point, your freeing up the potential from allllllll the other mods youve put on there that are currently starving for air because of a restrictive head.

and btw, no, I added 50whp by adding:
intake, intake mani, tb, shaved cyl head, cams, header, dp, exahust, and a tune (and supporting stuf and a higher readline), which is on par with what people see out of less then that.