For you, yeah go get METH you have a turbo. For the other 2.4Ls NO! You have your answers.

 

IF YOU HAVE A BONE STOCK ENGINE WITHOUT ANY POWER ADDER THERE IS NOT A GAIN TO BE HAD.


for the 15th time i have said this and everyone seems to think it will. it will not. the n/a 2.4 does not have the compression ratio to warrant an additional fuel source being injected into it.

yet there is a few people out there who seem to think there is a need for it. fine, waste the 200+ dollars on it and find out, hey someone who has tried it before actually knew what they were talking about.

 

It's not contradicting, he was just defining a Power Adder. That's what the IE was for.

 

OK thats what I was saying to about the N/A, I just wanted some details as to why. Nothing was mentioned about how much cooling is gained from the injection.

BTW i.e. means "that is"

 

well I think it's kinda weird how people get all defensive about these kinds of questions. I was actually hoping some of you more knowledgeable people would chime in and maybe answer the questions your just poking fun at, but whatever. it's weird that it would have no benefit to me because I clearly don't see what is keeping it from having a benefit? why does the stock motor knock at more than 3* advanced timing? no other 2.4's have done that? why is it useless on a stock (or near stock) motor, and why are details and facts about something that could be useful always hard to obtain on this site? sure I could google and google and google for days on end and maybe find the info...but that kinda defeats the point of a car forum full of people who know what they're doing and have the knowledge. in theory there IS benefit to it, however you're telling me that in practice there is not... where does that change and why?

 

there is a point to where the 2.4 stops making power via timing and afr. that point can be reached just fine and be safe on 91 octane.

if you want to find the benefit of it. stick 110 octane in the car, then tune it to mirror the water injection, but be safe about it. to measure this, don't use your butt dyno. use a real dyno with real data, and real time involved with it.

if it is worth 5 hp to you, then do it. if not, don't worry about it.

i wasn't getting defensive, it is just the fact that sometimes people don't want to listen/read facts about it. nothing more, nothing less.

 

well I certainly understand where you're coming from with feeling that way about people, but it's frustrating because I'm the kind of person who looks for posts from people like you as a possible bastion of knowledge in the sea of "my girlfriend likes another guy" posts.

 

The general consensus is a ten percent improvement in HP using water methyl injection on a stock or lightly modified NA engine. At least one supporting vendor does not believe a ten percent HP improvement is what the average Cobalt owner will be satisfied with if they invest $400 to $600. What are you willing to pay for a two hour install and 15 HP? Just make sure you can use the MAF output to drive a progressive controller and then get ready to run 87 octane for 100 octane results with the water injection. I believe you will achieve better fuel economy as the result of less gasoline being used during light acceleration. If you have a dehumidifier, the distilled water you need is free! You'll need just enough methyl alcohol to keep the water from freezing in this application.

 

well put it this way... I paid almost 300 bucks for a CAI that gave me MAYBE 10 if that... so.... as far as what you're saying about gas mileage that would be excellent, and what kind of mixture would you recommend? you seem to more about this than most so please indulge my silly questions. lol

 

50/50 water/methyl is a good starting point..... or you can use use straight windshield fluid as long as its -20 anti-freeze. For our Natural Aspiration application, we don't need more methyl alcohol for enrichment. It is more for cooling (a denser air charge will have greater expansion) while the water acts as an octane booster and the resulting steam produced has a greater expansion thus more power is produced per given amount of gasoline.

I like AIS Stage 2 http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...c25/index.html but their Reps don't seem to encourage us to use their NA kit in our Cobalts.

Still, I like their Trunk Kit http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...duct_info.html as it'll let you run a tank or two of 87 octane gas between fill ups of windshield fluid.

$600 plus 90 minutes = 15 HP ..... what are you waiting for??

 

why are you so adament about sticking something on a car that doesn't need it?

do YOU have proof of it?

do YOU have proof the car gains whp hp above 28.5 degree's of timing?

do YOU have proof that it gains hp with a leaner than 13.0 afr?

water has ZERO octane. water does NOT produce power in this type of application
the octane stems from the methonal.

get your information straight before leading people in the wrong direction

 

The mixture you want to run is between 60.40 and 80/20. The smaller being methanol.

Brian and I have been dead serious about no need for more than 91 octane in the car. There is NO gain from additional timing beyond an additional 3*. Spend your money ona tune instead and gain ~12whp from that. The methanol WILL cool the air coming into your engine, that's a fact. The car does not need any cooler air for one, and the only way it will compensate is if the MAF sensor pics it up for the IAT temp reading. Good luck spraying water on your MAF sensor. So obviously the Meth is after MAF, so it wont adjust IAT readings, since there is no IAT2 sensor on the LE5. It helps on the LSJ because there is a secondary IAT sensor after the intercooler.

Does a denser charge produce more power, yes technically. Will it cool the air? About as well as water can cool 140* air anyhow, so nothing really happens. So the charge is not cooled by any significant means. Will the motor make more power with methanol because of a higher octane rating? No, because you car will still be tuned for 91 octane, and adding a higher octane will make a less efficient combustion because it may take longer to burn than it actually need, so if you burn less fuel you will make less HP anyhow.

We have sprayed meth on the 2.6" LSJ's and there was no power gains on those from meth alone. The power came from additional timing allowed by the cooler air temps. So instead of 18* of timing you can push 24*, and the LSJ makes power up to 24.5* of timing advance. The LE5 will now make power past a 3* advance above stock, and it can hit that on 91 pump gas, so what are you gaining? SAve your $600 and buy HPTuners if you don't already have it. Learn to tune your car, make your 12whp and then make all of your money back retuning other LE5 cars. Simple enough.

Last year I bought 43 credits from HPtuner ($2,150) and was able to still make $5,000 profit above and beyond that. Not saying you will be that successful, but look at what you can do. If you don't go turbo, then you are pretty much limited with plugs, intake, header, DP, exhaust, and tune. That should net you 185whp, which is 35-40whp over stock. Pretty good gains for NA.

 

Water injection is an old way of getting HP from a gasoline engine without tuning or modifying the engine. While it has not been used on Naturally Aspirated and TB injected modern engines in recent years, it can be used to inject a fine mist into the air induction system after the MAF and before the throttle body in a 2.4L LE5 if the MAF signal is fed to a progressive controller so that water mist volume is gradually increased in relation to throttle position/air intake volume-rate. The higher compression ratio (10.4 to 1) and VVT (up to 50 degrees) of the LE5 will cause water injection to be more effective than in the other lower compression standard valve non-aspirated engines.

From AIS website: Increase Horsepower Safely By Up To 10-15%
Most significantly, initial horsepower increases are due primarily to the significant reductions in air charge temperatures offered by water alcohol/methanol injection. Along with the initial cooler aircharge temperature, comes a denser air charge. This creates a greater expansion of power within the cylinder, since pressure is directly proportional to temperature. The combustion process also turns the water droplets into a vapor which also helps to create a pressure raise (much in the same way as does a steam engine) and prevents the temperatures in the combustion from rushing to a sharp peak (as it does in a standard engine) and then dropping off. Instead, the combustion heat increases more slowly, reaching a lower peak temperature and descending more gradually. In addition, the longer overall combustion duration creates more pressure than does a standard engine’s cycle.

I note that those arguing against water injection in the LE5 are at least half my age and may not have the experience experimenting with water injection in daily driver / weekend racer applications. Yes, the HP potential improvement is much greater (20% to 50%) on a S/C or T/C engine. But ten percent (10%) improvement on a NA engine producing about 150 HP at the wheels (or 171 flywheel) is still 15 HP. Do the research, read the vendor's information sheets, and don't think you have to buy a tune to get 15 HP more from your 2.4L NA LE5.

 

Well to solve all this. Just get some stickers. They are always good for HP.

 

fine since you seem to know everything. go for it.

unless your 60+. i am not half your age.

 

Born in 1946. Do the math. Trained mechanic - honor graduate, fuel injection and forced induction systems. Been there, did it! Most likely I will be installing water injection soon, just as I did the other bolt ons I recommended here.... check my threads.

 

how will you adjust the air fuel ratio.

how will you adjust timing.

i know exactly what is going to happen.

since you're a know it all and have been there and done that.

the pe map commanding 1.300 is 11.30769 afr. no biggie, everyone knows this.
now, same pe map now with added water injection. what is the afr?

 

You are making this way too hard. You don't have to do any tuning or adjustments to the engine / ECU if you spray mostly water. If you use the MAF output to progressively increase the amount of water sprayed, you can get a 10 to 15 percent HP increase with just water (while using 87 octane gas) without advancing spark or increasing fuel. The HP gains are primarily due to the greater expansion of steam. The combustion chamber and exhaust gases are going to be cooler. Just GOOGLE "water injection" or look at the NA application pages of AIS and some of the other Water Methyl Injection companies.

Back in the 60's we didn't have PE MAPS on small block Chevy V-8s but the HP gain was still there using water... Oh yes, we started with 220 HP from 283 cubic inches NA and went from there.

 

you danced around my question. which means you do not know.

if you remember something key to this. jack posted it.

pe = power enrich. wide open fueling.


do what you will

 

I really don't understand what you want. I'm telling you that NA water injection DOES NOT require jacking around with the ECU tune like other power adders. Its simple, if you don't drown the engine with too much water, it'll make steam and prevent detonation (if you add enough). Do I want to do a tune??? No. And "do what you will".... I intend to.