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Injector basics for LSJ

Old 01-07-2016, 11:09 PM
  #126  
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Have you considered that your maf was skewed before due to faulty data? Just a thought. Which stage injectors did you have?
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Old 01-08-2016, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by RedLined View Post
The data I got is from the OP and it also included data on various injectors that is nearly identical to that released by Greg Banish. The only differences were that the values for injectors with IFR higher than the 63.5 limit had their offset values halved. As the op believes our pcms only use half the values.







The data you received from FIC has only the adders and minimum pulse width tables in common with the OP's. The offsets are slightly different but I have no reason to believe it is accurate unless some one is using it properly and without issues. (By properly I mean on a tune where the bad data isn't being made up for in the MAF or VE)
I believe that FIC is using the info they have for their Bosch 650cc injectors instead of actually flow testing these injectors. Which would explain why all the data I've seen for them is labeled 650CC and has a flow rate of 72.02 lb/hr @58psi instead of the 69 lb/hr @ 58 psi of a 627CC injector.
Ill try the data you posted on a new tune for my car in various ways and post my findings here in a few days. Ive done extensive testing on multiple ways of running these injectors with the OP's data and haven't found a consistent and reliable method to use the data without skewing my MAF. The car will run whats commanded while in pe, but under low load and at idle the performance is sub par (at least compared to the stage kit injectors they replaced) and the adjustments I have had to make to my maf to get them to work, just so I can drive the car reliably, is ridiculous.

You will have to do some interpolating, but yes it can.
I'm using an e67 so there is no interpolation for me. I've already verified that the data that fic gave me is copy and paste into my existing tables. But the entire reason I bought the injectors was because fic claimed the data to be accurate. If you find that it is not I will be very angry at them and appreciative of your findings as this will be my first engine that I will have to tune from scratch and I would likely have a hard time figuring this out of it went wrong.
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Old 01-08-2016, 01:41 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
Have you considered that your maf was skewed before due to faulty data? Just a thought. Which stage injectors did you have?
GM stage kit injectors they're all the same, and no my MAF data was only a few percent different than factory Stage 2.
When I say skewed I mean the top half of my MAF had to be raised almost 20% while the mid range was raised about 5-10% and around idle it was about 5% rich. Non of it is linear, and fuel trims are not consistent with the percentage I change on my MAF. For example if I make a 5% change to the MAF my trims do not follow suit. I will see anywhere from 3 to 7% depending on where the change was made. Also the more I mess with my IFR and the offset values and try different methods to scale for the IFR limit the closer I get to having spot on trims.

The only thing I hadn't tried is a scaled tune using the OP's data as is. I have been operating under the assumption that he'd halved the offset values as per his original post and as indicated by the other injector info he included with his. So when ever I would use his data on a tune I would double the offset data he provided assuming it would be back to how it was before he halved it.
Seeing as the data supplied to patooyee by FIC is so close to the OP's I'm thinking now that maybe it might work on a scaled tune. I have tried it on a tune with the double stoich method with mixed results so I didn't bother trying it on a scaled tune. I'll try both sets of data this weekend on a scaled tune and post what I find.

Last edited by RedLined; 01-08-2016 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 01-08-2016, 02:14 PM
  #129  
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Sorry i thought you were talking about zzp stage kit injectors, disregard what i said.
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Old 01-11-2016, 10:25 PM
  #130  
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So I started a completely new scaled tune using the OP's data without doubling the offset values and it's working fine. Probably the quickest I've tuned my MAF. Two passes was all it took, and idle is just as good as stock. I guess I may not have understood how the OP used the data to get around the IFR limit, but it never worked for me to use it in any way other than a scaled tune.
In the next day or so I'll try a scaled tune using the data supplied by FIC.
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Old 01-11-2016, 10:33 PM
  #131  
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Are you using the double stoich method?
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Old 01-12-2016, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
Are you using the double stoich method?
That didn't really work for me, it would go into open loop around 2K rpm and stay in OL unless I went into neutral and there was no DFCO. On my current tune I scaled the MAF and IFR by 50% along with every table that uses g/cyl.

Last edited by RedLined; 01-12-2016 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 01-12-2016, 05:07 PM
  #133  
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So that also makes it so you dont max out the timing table so quickly doesnt it?
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Old 01-12-2016, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
So that also makes it so you dont max out the timing table so quickly doesnt it?
Yes, I'm only using half my timing table now. Though I wasn't really worried about maxing it out with just my TVS, but it's nice to know I have the extra room just in case.
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Old 01-12-2016, 07:07 PM
  #135  
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how far does the table go on a p12? my k04 on 12psi was maxed at 1.28g/cyl with an e37.
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Old 01-12-2016, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
how far does the table go on a p12? my k04 on 12psi was maxed at 1.28g/cyl with an e37.
1.36g/cyl
With the TVS and a 3.1 pulley I would Max out at 1.12g/cyl
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Old 01-12-2016, 07:44 PM
  #137  
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Interesting...

That was unscaled?
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Old 01-12-2016, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
Interesting...

That was unscaled?
Wait, now that I think about it I don't know what it would max out at unscaled. I had limited boost at 80% when I installed the TVS. I meant to raise it back to 100 after I installed my long tube headers and 3 inch exhaust but completely forgot until I was comparing it to my scaled tune this weekend. So I've been running at 80% boost for the last few months

Last edited by RedLined; 01-12-2016 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 01-12-2016, 09:39 PM
  #139  
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Well, youre welcome :p
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Old 01-12-2016, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
Well, youre welcome :p
Most definitely, thanks. I'm glad I looked into this thread again.

On that note I tried the injector info that was provided by FIC to patooyee and unfortunately I could not get it to work on a scaled tune. No matter what I did to the MAF it just wouldn't lean out. Now this is pretty much exactly what the OP noted in his first post.
That being said I dont know what he did to get the values he uses but I honestly don't think the data he got for these injectors was right to begin with anyway.
I still feel that the only way to get the proper data is to send these injectors to get tested. For whatever it's worth, I can at least confirm that the OP's data will work on a scaled tune.
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Old 01-12-2016, 11:08 PM
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As a new tuner using an E67 would you suggest that I call FIC and confront them about this, try to return the injectors? The entire reason I bought them was that they told me the data was accurate.

Or ... how much does it cost to have them flow-tested? I don't need my injectors for a while. I'd be happy to send them to a reputable shop if it wasn't too expensive and / or others were willing to pitch in ...

I'm going to have enough problems trying to get my engine tuned from scratch as a first-time tuner. The last thing I need to deal with is inaccurate injector data throwing everything off.
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Old 01-12-2016, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by patooyee View Post
As a new tuner using an E67 would you suggest that I call FIC and confront them about this, try to return the injectors? The entire reason I bought them was that they told me the data was accurate.

Or ... how much does it cost to have them flow-tested? I don't need my injectors for a while. I'd be happy to send them to a reputable shop if it wasn't too expensive and / or others were willing to pitch in ...

I'm going to have enough problems trying to get my engine tuned from scratch as a first-time tuner. The last thing I need to deal with is inaccurate injector data throwing everything off.
As I said before I'd definitely be willing to chip in. If I hadn't gotten rid of my secondary vehicle I would have already sent mine off.
You can try to get FIC involved but I email and called them plenty of times and never got anywhere. Which makes sense since they've been known to hand out data that isn't correct or even theirs. Here's an interesting article by the guys at Injector Dynamics that talks about this extensively The Same as Injector Dynamics but Cheaper - Injector Dynamics
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Old 01-13-2016, 09:00 AM
  #143  
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I would just return them and get a set of injector dynamics.
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Old 01-13-2016, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
I would just return them and get a set of injector dynamics.
That's honestly what I would suggest if he was going to run E85. It's also what I would have done if I had seen what my Meth injection did to the rotor pack in my M62 before I bought these Bosch injectors. I'll probably be going full E85 later this year and getting a set of ID725s.
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Old 01-13-2016, 10:33 AM
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There's nowhere to get e85 around here. I'm going to stick with plain-jane 93 octane.

I spoke with ID this morning about flow-testing these injectors. They said they don't have time and that they knew of few places that could accurately do it.

I'm going to attempt to return my injectors. It has been 91 days since my purchase. FIC's site does not state anything about a return window, just a 20% restocking fee. I'll let you know how it goes.

Given that the OP has disappeared and there is valid evidence to suggest that FIC's data is fraudulent, I think this thread should be locked or marked as possibly fraudulent or something to prevent future members from purchasing. I can't imagine that cobaltss.net would willingly desire to allow potential fraud to be perpetuated under their banner.
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Old 01-13-2016, 10:38 AM
  #146  
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Even if you dont do e85, the injector dynamics will at least have proper data. Technically the data here works according to redlined.
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Old 01-13-2016, 10:39 AM
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Talked to FIC. They were happy to accept my return. I will ship them back this week.
I must say that they have been a pleasure to deal with this entire time.

Redlined, given the questionable info put forth already I'm not sure how important split tip injectors really are now. But the ID725's are a very narrow single cone spray according to Mitch at ID. (They are what he suggested I buy.) To me it seams like they would be spraying at the runner divider, not the valves.
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by patooyee View Post
Talked to FIC. They were happy to accept my return. I will ship them back this week.
I must say that they have been a pleasure to deal with this entire time.

Redlined, given the questionable info put forth already I'm not sure how important split tip injectors really are now. But the ID725's are a very narrow single cone spray according to Mitch at ID. (They are what he suggested I buy.) To me it seams like they would be spraying at the runner divider, not the valves.
True, whenever you remove the injectors you can see the divider right there so the stream gets split no matter what. I chose these simply because I wanted something better than Siemens but didn't want something as big the ID725s. I wasn't planning on needing that much flow until I realized the need for E85.
Now since I'm stuck with these injectors I have contacted fiveomotorsports, they sell these Bosch injectors as well. I bought my adapters from them and so I'm hoping they'll help me out with the data since I am customer, but I wouldn't hold it against them if they didn't.

Last edited by RedLined; 01-13-2016 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 01-13-2016, 01:00 PM
  #149  
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I thought ID had split streams? Maybe if you step up to the 1000cc?
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Old 01-13-2016, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
I thought ID had split streams? Maybe if you step up to the 1000cc?
I didn't specifically mention that I wanted split stream, but I did mention that what I had was and asked if what they suggested was, and they said it was not.
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