Story of a ZZP Engine Swap
03-13-2012, 02:53 AM
#127
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Thread Starter
My only other thought would be to have somebody watch the whole time while I fill up, drive, and fill up again; Some independent party. It could be several people that could all co-witness or maybe just another person that people all trust.
03-13-2012, 03:44 AM
#128
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Don't take what I said the wrong way, man. All I was saying was that you made an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You can't be surprised if people still don't believe you even after posting up pictures. And like I said before, you're getting over 10mpg more than anyone else on here that has ever posted up about E85, including myself.
The bottom line is, there is still doubt since the pictures don't tell the whole, complete, "I feel like I rode in the car with you and there's a 30 minute video" evidence that people are looking for. Until that happens, or you have a credible witness riding shotgun, it's understandable that people would call BS.
The bottom line is, there is still doubt since the pictures don't tell the whole, complete, "I feel like I rode in the car with you and there's a 30 minute video" evidence that people are looking for. Until that happens, or you have a credible witness riding shotgun, it's understandable that people would call BS.
03-13-2012, 10:51 AM
#130
Opening up the intake will actually cause more airflow which then will cause more fuel to be used. With a ported head you can throw alot of timing at it and not be e85....
The thing is, showing evidence isn't taking pictures or a 2min video. It's actually going on a trip to use a full tank of gas. And compare mileages... There is reasons why no auto mfg has hit 35+ with e85 .. the closest is 25mpg and that's shutting down cylinders at cruise speeds. Cruise speeds being 65-75. Lower speeds give the car a act of lower vacuum and dont require much more fuel so its not accurate. I'm not trying to be a dick, but like I said before it cant happen unless there isn't somthing else your not telling us.
The thing is, showing evidence isn't taking pictures or a 2min video. It's actually going on a trip to use a full tank of gas. And compare mileages... There is reasons why no auto mfg has hit 35+ with e85 .. the closest is 25mpg and that's shutting down cylinders at cruise speeds. Cruise speeds being 65-75. Lower speeds give the car a act of lower vacuum and dont require much more fuel so its not accurate. I'm not trying to be a dick, but like I said before it cant happen unless there isn't somthing else your not telling us.
03-13-2012, 11:33 AM
#131
Opening up the intake will actually cause more airflow which then will cause more fuel to be used. With a ported head you can throw alot of timing at it and not be e85....
The thing is, showing evidence isn't taking pictures or a 2min video. It's actually going on a trip to use a full tank of gas. And compare mileages... There is reasons why no auto mfg has hit 35+ with e85 .. the closest is 25mpg and that's shutting down cylinders at cruise speeds. Cruise speeds being 65-75. Lower speeds give the car a act of lower vacuum and dont require much more fuel so its not accurate. I'm not trying to be a dick, but like I said before it cant happen unless there isn't somthing else your not telling us.
The thing is, showing evidence isn't taking pictures or a 2min video. It's actually going on a trip to use a full tank of gas. And compare mileages... There is reasons why no auto mfg has hit 35+ with e85 .. the closest is 25mpg and that's shutting down cylinders at cruise speeds. Cruise speeds being 65-75. Lower speeds give the car a act of lower vacuum and dont require much more fuel so its not accurate. I'm not trying to be a dick, but like I said before it cant happen unless there isn't somthing else your not telling us.
03-13-2012, 11:52 AM
#132
Senior Member
Thanks man. I don't think people understand that I'm on their side on this. I wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't seen it and been there myself, so I understand that people don't believe it. I just don't stand for the part where they take it too far and call me a liar though.
I agree with what people are saying. Logically a car that's rated for upper 20s / lower 30s highway mpg somehow getting low-to-mid 30s mpg on E85, a fuel that due to it's chemical makeup should get ~30% less mileage per gallon, is quite unexpected and doesn't make sense. Chevycobaltss3 is right-on about the his point on the chemistry of it.
E85 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
My only guess is the same as yours; That there is something that is happening we don't understand.
I'm wondering now what might happen on 93, but I'd probably just be right back to stoking the internet flame at this point.
I wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't seen it and been there myself, so I understand that people don't believe it. I just don't stand for the part where they take it too far and call me a liar though.I agree with what people are saying. Logically a car that's rated for upper 20s / lower 30s highway mpg somehow getting low-to-mid 30s mpg on E85, a fuel that due to it's chemical makeup should get ~30% less mileage per gallon, is quite unexpected and doesn't make sense. Chevycobaltss3 is right-on about the his point on the chemistry of it.
E85 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
My only guess is the same as yours; That there is something that is happening we don't understand.
I'm wondering now what might happen on 93, but I'd probably just be right back to stoking the internet flame at this point.
03-13-2012, 12:03 PM
#134
First off he's showing irrelavant evidence. So quit whining about this and that. pictures.. these are the supposed evidence of said mileage. Ok I can take a pic of my mileage and say I'm doing one thing and in fact I may not be.... .. Mathmatics. Ok.. I can say I did this much and show a picture of said mileage of started and ended. but there's so many things that can Skew results. Including within the tuning, downhills, incorrect cruising speeds. The thing is false info..
His pics are like saying I went to the track and ran my car and got a 9sec 1/4 ..so I show a slip and in fact it says the said time. But more then likely I just said that and showed the incorrect number on car for proof..... The assumption of him getting 35+ on full e85 is false and if not false there is somthing else going on....
You can Skew calibrations to say one thing when in fact its doing the total opposite.....for true evidence he needs to actually video the whole thing if he wants to hit the nail on the head... Because I'm gonna call bullshit till then..... Science says otherwise.....
His pics are like saying I went to the track and ran my car and got a 9sec 1/4 ..so I show a slip and in fact it says the said time. But more then likely I just said that and showed the incorrect number on car for proof..... The assumption of him getting 35+ on full e85 is false and if not false there is somthing else going on....
You can Skew calibrations to say one thing when in fact its doing the total opposite.....for true evidence he needs to actually video the whole thing if he wants to hit the nail on the head... Because I'm gonna call bullshit till then..... Science says otherwise.....
03-13-2012, 12:31 PM
#135
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First off he's showing irrelavant evidence. So quit whining about this and that. pictures.. these are the supposed evidence of said mileage. Ok I can take a pic of my mileage and say I'm doing one thing and in fact I may not be.... .. Mathmatics. Ok.. I can say I did this much and show a picture of said mileage of started and ended. but there's so many things that can Skew results. Including within the tuning, downhills, incorrect cruising speeds. The thing is false info..
His pics are like saying I went to the track and ran my car and got a 9sec 1/4 ..so I show a slip and in fact it says the said time. But more then likely I just said that and showed the incorrect number on car for proof..... The assumption of him getting 35+ on full e85 is false and if not false there is somthing else going on....
You can Skew calibrations to say one thing when in fact its doing the total opposite.....for true evidence he needs to actually video the whole thing if he wants to hit the nail on the head... Because I'm gonna call bullshit till then..... Science says otherwise.....
His pics are like saying I went to the track and ran my car and got a 9sec 1/4 ..so I show a slip and in fact it says the said time. But more then likely I just said that and showed the incorrect number on car for proof..... The assumption of him getting 35+ on full e85 is false and if not false there is somthing else going on....
You can Skew calibrations to say one thing when in fact its doing the total opposite.....for true evidence he needs to actually video the whole thing if he wants to hit the nail on the head... Because I'm gonna call bullshit till then..... Science says otherwise.....
03-13-2012, 02:09 PM
#138
I don't think he is lying. You guys are all missing that he didn't drive enough miles to make for an accurate fuel mileage. The pumps dont shut off at the exact same spot so when you are only putting in a little bit of gas that variance can make a huge difference in your mpg.
43.1/1.231=35.01
43.1/1.5=28.73
I have no problem believing that the shutoff could easily vary buy a 1/4 gallon especially if he didn't use the same pump.
Try a couple full tanks and average it out and the accuracy will go up
43.1/1.231=35.01
43.1/1.5=28.73
I have no problem believing that the shutoff could easily vary buy a 1/4 gallon especially if he didn't use the same pump.
Try a couple full tanks and average it out and the accuracy will go up
03-13-2012, 03:12 PM
#139
Senior Member
Thread Starter
The problem is that there's nowhere I can go that's that far, all highway (because that's what the question is about), and end up at an E station. I'm not going to drive 150+ miles down a highway, turn around, and come back, and then do it several more times just to have y'all say the same things again. I don't have a video camera with the required 4+ hours of constant recording space to do that. Heck, who would watch that? That's just not reasonable.
I'm dropping it. There will always be something that people are going to pick out and complain about whatever I do.
-Vince has always done the tuning so no I didn't ask him to somehow mess with the speedo. If you have questions about the tuning, you're free to ask him. (Maybe I could make a vid that shows speedo/RPD compared to GPS speed to prove that part to rule that BS out)
-Vince has never given me a gas tune so it wouldn't be safe to run gas in my tank. I'd be crazy to spend more than a month of weekends with my friend and that amount of money on a new engine just to turn around and destroy it for something piddly like this.
-It doesn't matter what the hell is skewed in the tune. The only thing that would have changed the outcome of this is if: A) The odometer is messed up and/or B) The gas station pump is mis-calibrated. I can cross-check A with a GPS and there would have to be a gross error to make a large change in B for the amount of fuel I had to put back in. So this rules out skewing of the tune.
-I used the same exact gas pump when I topped off before and after to help rule out the cutoff possibilty.
-I drove down the highway, turned around, and came back on the same highway. This helps rule out any hills, elevation changes, and wind direction.
-People don't understand that if I used the whole tank on a cruise, the mileage may actually go up because I'd be burning off weight the whole time.
-I'm on stock size tires. I can take a pic of them too, to show the size. I didn't overinflate them, as seen in video where the psi is visible for all 4. Also, this was done on two different sets/kinds, so that rules that out.
-I didn't claim I'd get 46mpg on gas. You do know E85 vs 93 mileage varies a bit by car right? Yes, E85 chemically has less energy, but you can also run more timing with it to help offset some of that.
-People are getting stuck on the Instant Mileage. Ignore it. I was using it simply to keep track of relative fuel consumption during the drive. The Average is what first caught my attention.
-Keep in mind the engine and car mods. The car isn't stock. The engine mods are listed here in this thread and the car mods are in the Garage. I'll need to update the garage mod list with the engine stuff, but it's otherwise accurate except for the new tires I got yesterday.
It's got to be that I took out my spare tire 3 years ago for weight savings.
I'm dropping it. There will always be something that people are going to pick out and complain about whatever I do.
-Vince has always done the tuning so no I didn't ask him to somehow mess with the speedo. If you have questions about the tuning, you're free to ask him. (Maybe I could make a vid that shows speedo/RPD compared to GPS speed to prove that part to rule that BS out)
-Vince has never given me a gas tune so it wouldn't be safe to run gas in my tank. I'd be crazy to spend more than a month of weekends with my friend and that amount of money on a new engine just to turn around and destroy it for something piddly like this.
-It doesn't matter what the hell is skewed in the tune. The only thing that would have changed the outcome of this is if: A) The odometer is messed up and/or B) The gas station pump is mis-calibrated. I can cross-check A with a GPS and there would have to be a gross error to make a large change in B for the amount of fuel I had to put back in. So this rules out skewing of the tune.
-I used the same exact gas pump when I topped off before and after to help rule out the cutoff possibilty.
-I drove down the highway, turned around, and came back on the same highway. This helps rule out any hills, elevation changes, and wind direction.
-People don't understand that if I used the whole tank on a cruise, the mileage may actually go up because I'd be burning off weight the whole time.
-I'm on stock size tires. I can take a pic of them too, to show the size. I didn't overinflate them, as seen in video where the psi is visible for all 4. Also, this was done on two different sets/kinds, so that rules that out.
-I didn't claim I'd get 46mpg on gas. You do know E85 vs 93 mileage varies a bit by car right? Yes, E85 chemically has less energy, but you can also run more timing with it to help offset some of that.
-People are getting stuck on the Instant Mileage. Ignore it. I was using it simply to keep track of relative fuel consumption during the drive. The Average is what first caught my attention.
-Keep in mind the engine and car mods. The car isn't stock. The engine mods are listed here in this thread and the car mods are in the Garage. I'll need to update the garage mod list with the engine stuff, but it's otherwise accurate except for the new tires I got yesterday.
It's got to be that I took out my spare tire 3 years ago for weight savings.
Last edited by Stamina; 03-13-2012 at 03:29 PM.
03-13-2012, 03:17 PM
#140
Stamina -
**** all the haters! - and the nay-sayers
on the low, b****'s is probly 8th graders!
you've done an awesome build and no matter what ur mileage is i'm sure its ******* good enough, especially considering how much power you must be making. heck i bet u barely have to use the gas pedal to put around so right there ur probly saving tons of fuel.
**** all the haters! - and the nay-sayers
on the low, b****'s is probly 8th graders!
you've done an awesome build and no matter what ur mileage is i'm sure its ******* good enough, especially considering how much power you must be making. heck i bet u barely have to use the gas pedal to put around so right there ur probly saving tons of fuel.
03-13-2012, 03:20 PM
#141
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Stamina -
**** all the haters! - and the nay-sayers
on the low, b****'s is probly 8th graders!
you've done an awesome build and no matter what ur mileage is i'm sure its ******* good enough, especially considering how much power you must be making. heck i bet u barely have to use the gas pedal to put around so right there ur probly saving tons of fuel.
**** all the haters! - and the nay-sayers
on the low, b****'s is probly 8th graders!
you've done an awesome build and no matter what ur mileage is i'm sure its ******* good enough, especially considering how much power you must be making. heck i bet u barely have to use the gas pedal to put around so right there ur probly saving tons of fuel.
Maybe it's time to see how how quickly I can burn gas this weekend. TX2K12/Supra Nationals! Maybe I can get a good video of me running something nice that was impossible for me to beat too.
http://www.tx2k.com/
I remember when it was impossible to beat some of the cars that are now considered beatable these days. Just dig in some of the War Stories from a couple years ago.
Last edited by Stamina; 03-13-2012 at 03:28 PM.
03-13-2012, 04:34 PM
#144
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Sweet! Yeah, I may have to send you some links. Usually the best stuff is the unlisted stuff.
Yeah, I know what you mean. The car's been a blast so far! So far it's been running really well.
I've got a friend that should be able to help with the catch can this week. He's kind of the McGuyver of the car club and machined a tool a while back that may help getting this valve cover hose off. The other small project is going back and installing the phenolic spacer now.
The clutch has finally broken in and much more slippable. We bled it again with a machine to make sure we were good to go, and I'm still surprised how stock-like the pedal pressure is. I'm second guessing installing the adjustable clutch rod since the clutch pedal engagement point and pressure are about like stock. I wouldn't want to install it just for the heck of it and if there's no reason to. I could see how the rod may come in handy with a non-ZZP clutch or for those that want to change the engagement point.
I've got a friend that should be able to help with the catch can this week. He's kind of the McGuyver of the car club and machined a tool a while back that may help getting this valve cover hose off. The other small project is going back and installing the phenolic spacer now.
The clutch has finally broken in and much more slippable. We bled it again with a machine to make sure we were good to go, and I'm still surprised how stock-like the pedal pressure is. I'm second guessing installing the adjustable clutch rod since the clutch pedal engagement point and pressure are about like stock. I wouldn't want to install it just for the heck of it and if there's no reason to. I could see how the rod may come in handy with a non-ZZP clutch or for those that want to change the engagement point.
03-13-2012, 04:52 PM
#147
Senior Member
Should be none. Forty has a catch can setup on his LNF (on the correct line) and it catches no oil LOL.
03-13-2012, 04:56 PM
#148
He has a catch can on the LNF with k04. Not the BNR. I have yet to figure out how to add one to my setup with the BNR so I can get it back to a closed system. I just dont like venting the VC as VTA. Stamina and I were brainstorming ideas on how to run the return line that used to go back to the k04.
03-13-2012, 05:03 PM
#149
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I was wanting to add a catch can because on my last engine it did have a lot of blow by in my opinion. This one hasn't been having any problems with it so far, but if I can catch whatever it has in the future then that'll help keep the valves from getting as nasty as they did as well as cut down on the possibility of oil detonation. I'd like to keep this thing running well for some time.