MidnightNB

While were on the topic, what kind of gains do you think I'd see going from Stg2 and gmpp exaust, to adding water/meth, a 2.9, airbox mod, tuning for the meth and leaning out the afr to around 11.8 to 12.0? I'm allready 90% sure thats the route I'm gonna go this fall (summer was hid/projectors, tint, dvd deck, tires and swaybar; lol), I'm just wondering how big of a difference and how much whp I should pick up on that. If I'm happy with that, winter/spring is gonna be lowering springs, drag radials, and ingalls or t-bars.

Zooomer

iTrader: (1)

Cars running on alcohol make more power because it is a superior fuel for making horsepower. You can run more compression and boost.

Adding water to your engine will make it lose power.

Somewhere in the middle if you have a mix you will go from HP loss to gain or vice versa. Windshield washer fluid can never add power to your car unless your build is wrong and then it can remove some of the losses you have. Guys to claim to gain 10 HP from using it are generally down 20 already from an improper setup.

Psykostevo

You won't really see **** from injection. The LE5 doesn't like more than a few degrees extra timing advance and you can already hit that on premium. There is no significant gain at all for you from it.

I have seen IAT2's on some peoples cars of 220+F Talk about rediculous.

BriantheLion26

Ebay coolingmist. They have a fender kit for 200 shipped. I just emailed coolingmist and had them price match their 220 kit + shipping (240 shipped) to 200 shipped (180+20 shipping). I was doing them a favor so ebay doesn't take a cut. I should have asked for lower and if he didn't like that bought it on ebay.

David is the guy from coolingmist, very nice guy. I got my setup tapped into the washer fluid tank. Takes some time to set up but not that difficult at all. Hardest was tapping my intake pipe.

schamsy

We aren't adding water to our engine... The water evaps before it even gets to the intake manifold. It cools the air down. Adding methanol to the mix create an octane boost, as if we are running almost a race gas... Windshield washer fluid can add power, it can have up to 40% methanol in it. Wierd that a vendor would say something like this that is completely wrong.

For instance my uncle has a GMC typhoon... 100% completely stock the only thing he added was water/meth injection with windsheild washer fluid he went from 13.92 to 13.74 consistently at the track.

Psykostevo

Where does the water go? Into the engine! It doesn't enter a 4th dimension.

freakta

iTrader: (1)

it enters a 5th dimension ah ah ah ahahaha

Werewolf SS

It enters a dimension called the evaporation dimension

So much miss info about meth/water mixes and uses and outcomes it's crazy.
I know what I know to make it work and thats all thats needed

light'bolt

Well I hope to find out next weekend at tri-state in Earlville IA. I'm hoping my kit comes in today, install it over the weekend and try to work out the tune.

So running 12.0 AFR with 50/50 meth is safe enough for the occasional everyday accleration on the hiway?

Probably best to see how much cooler it gets with the set up before adjusting the AFR's.

AIS

I can understand your point and reasoning as common sense would tell you that this is a bad idea. However, water and water alone can be very beneficial when delivered in the proper quanities and when atomized properly.

Case in point. Steve Morris's pump gas (93 octane pump gas) 1740 horsepower non-intercooled, 20+ psi ProCharged big block Chevy engine. This engine would have never been able to pull that much boost and produced that much power on pump gas alone without the water injection.

Water is a very effective anti-detonate, slowing down the burn rate of the fuel thereby effectively increasing the fuels octane rating. Spray to much of it and yes you will loose power as it will put the fire out completely. Water injection also cools the intake air charge which in turn also helps suppress detonation while at the same time providing a denser air charge.

Here's a link to the article in Hot Rod magazine below and a link to some of our various articles which will further explain the effects and benefits of water methanol injection.

http://www.stevemorrisracingengines....ticle-SMRE.pdf

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c.../articles.html

Area47

water does NOT add power. pure and simple.

water has ZERO octane properties.

BULLETSSMOKE

you're arguing with people who have proven that these methods work, why are you still trying to prove him wrong, professional drag racers do this **** everyday. why try?

Area47

thats a lot of sarcasm

restonSS

ouch.

Psykostevo

He's just using the water as an intercooler. What would need to be intercooled on a 2.4L LE5 Cobalt?

Area47

the hamsters


::runs::

AIS

It's nothing new. I deal with this sort of stuff all the time.

For those that don't know. Steve Morris was one of the top NHRA Pro Stock engine builders back in the late 90's before leaving to go off on his own. I used this motor of his as an example and also to quote him.

Read page 3, 4th paragraph.

"water injection system spraying straight into blower not only helps seal up clearances in the supercharger and makes it tighter and more efficient - it also cools the air temperature down. And water acts as a detonation suppressant. So we effectively raise the octane of the fuel by spraying water." Steve Morris

I'll have to tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about the next time I talk to him and that he's got it all wrong.

Rodney

Area47

lets back up a second here. octane being defined as a measure of anti detonation in fuel/gasoline.

simple misundertsanding, or being twisted in a sense on peoples ends. using it as a detonation supressor. hence being able to run more timing.

AIS

The thing is. I have worked with countless customers, some directly and some indirectly, and added straight water injection to their non-intercooled ProChargers, Vortech's, Eatons (to include Magnachargers), Kenne Bells and Turbo's and without changing the tune and advancing timing, picked up anywhere from 7-12% gains in power. Gains notable enough that the person could tell his motor pulled harder on the top end right off the bat without even going to the dyno to see the numbers. All by just adding the water injection. Why? Because we pulled out over a 100-140 degree's in air temps. Surely this works better for carbureted applications but still we do it with many EFI applications. The key to it is being non-intercooled. With no cooling provided by an intercooler, the water injection makes a huge difference in lowering discharge temperatures.

Take a look at your ET's during the cooler 50 degree morning runs vs 100 degree summer afternoon runs.

Not only that. On any of our centrifugals or turbo's. By locating the nozzle directly before the inlet of the compressor (unlike how many will do it after) we would pick up anywhere from 2-5 psi increase on 12-25+ psi applications.

By sealing up the impeller and cooling down the air that is being compressed inside the compressor we are able to condense it further and ultimately increase compressor efficiency by packing more air through the unit and boost goes up. With it we get more power. It's that simple. The water injection gave us more power.

Area47

in my head trying to compress water is a bad thing.

A. using the water as an intercooler
B. being able to---- C. run more boost, D. run more timing

im not trying to argue, so don't take it as such

restonSS

it gave you more power indirectly. kinda like tuning your car gives you more power and most of the time results to increases in mpg as well.

AIS

If compressing water is bad? Then why do you do it?

I know you run a mix of water and methanol with your water meth injection system from your previous post's.

Yes. Filling a cylinder with water is bad. But were not filling cylinders here with water and bending rods. Nor are we spraying anywhere near enough to wash down cylinder walls or ruin oil.

As I always tell everyone. Atomization is paramount when working with pure water or large quantities of water in the mix. We need to break it up as fine as possible (maintaining a misting effect) so that the water droplets stay suspended in the air stream and can quickly be absorbed into the air charge and make their phase change cooling off the air charge.

If we don't atomize it - we get nothing but water moving along the bottom of the intake floors causing problems. Thats why I don't like using anything over a 6 GPH nozzle and suggest using multiple nozzles to maintain the misting effect when injecting after the compressor on high horsepower applications. When injecting before it you don't have to worry about atomization since the impeller is going to break it up for you.

A. Water atomized properly and sprayed in the right quantities

B. Will cool intake air charge of supercharged and turbocharged motors 100-150 degrees (non-intercooled applications running 12-25+ psi)

C. Additionally, with injection located before the inlet of the centrifugal, turbo and even twins screws and roots style superchargers, will help seal up the clearances of the impeller or rooters/screws against the housing, increasing compressor efficiency

D. Increased compressor efficiency will lead to increased boost pressure

E. Increased boost pressure and lower air charge temps and increased air density will lead to increase power.

Not trying to argue. Just stating the facts and what my experiences are and others like Steve Morris who are using it.

The point is water injection can increase power with supercharged and turbocharged applications when used correctly. And is a tool for running more boost, more timing and can "effectively" raise the fuels octane by slowing down the burn rate of the fuel. Spray to much and it will slow the burn rate all the way down to the point where it will not longer be ignitable.

Hope this explains and helps others understand water injection better.

Rodney

ecotecon18s

ah...some good **** in here...subscribed for later...

theneelster

Without a tune you probably will lose power unless you're running lean now.

You could use the factory tank but you need to monitor how much is left in the tank otherwise you may run out and if you're tuned for it, you're car will run like ****. I suggest mounting a second tank somewhere so you can at least monitor it...hell if you don't want anyone to see it there are a lot of options (like the trunk or the glovebox possibly).

But as I said before...meth makes your afr richer so if you're on the stage 2 tune you'll run too rich. You could try something like the maf translator (leaner) if you don't want to tune for it...wouldn't be perfect but would run better.

I'm sorry, you may know better ais, but I would never feel comfortable running straight water in my car especially when you can buy peak -20 for like 1.06 about the price of a gallon of water at walmart.

FrankTheTank

this stuff is pretty simple really. once you have some grasp of 5th grade science. The water absorbs heat turning it into steam thus creating a slight increase in psi and AFR. The biggest point here is how much heat it absorbs for the FI'd engines; allowing the charger to run more efficiently and allowing for overdriving w/smaller pullies.
....just felt like thinking out loud.