ohh snap, crackle & pop!

kellogs rice krispies!

 

Why go to school when you can read that??!

I believe you explained it better then any of us could..

 

epic thread in the making.

just in case people didnt know. this is pretty old tech stuff.
been around a LONG time.

The essential idea was developed in the first decade of the last century. The original purpose was enhanced cooling. By 1910 some engines which had been water-cooled were simply produced without water-jackets after addition of 'internal cooling', as water-injection was first called. Those engines had compression ratios around 4:1 and the phenomenon of pre ignition (knocking, pinking) was unknown. Later however this became the main reason for water injection which turns out to give spectacular octane improvement, allowing CR as high as 13:1. By the end of World War II many aero engines used water-injection. German versions used water-methanol mixtures, partly because straight water would freeze in winter. The Wright Cyclone, a main U.S. aero engine, tested with water and methanol-water (the two liquids being miscible in all proportions, unlike methanol & petrol), showed 50:50 best (as had the Germans). The results were summarised as "high savings in fuel cost - 52% at 100% power, decreasing to 25% at low cruise powers... pure water is approximately equal to fuel when used as an engine internal coolant at high power". Water gained the Corsair (flown by some Kiwi pilots in the Pacific) 350 bhp on its normal maximum of 2100 bhp - a 17% increase. These were supercharged engines, so the results may not translate readily to normal aspiration. Another alcohol, infamous ethanol, was similarly mixed with water before injection, but was not as good.

When Renault attacked Formula 1 with twin turbos cramming several atmospheres of boost into Gordini's 1500 cc V6, they readily achieved 450 bhp, but burned holes in pistons. Then a Kiwi mechanic recalled water-injection; a reliable 550 bhp won the championship. The Saab turbo works rally car at one period had a water tank as big as the petrol tank. Some modern gas-turbine aero engines use water-injection for maximum power at takeoff. Various naval and rail external-combustion rigs are improved by steam injection.

 

thats why i love this forum

 

Here is a link to my SAE corrected dyno sheet. http://www.trifectaperformance.com/dynos.aspx (scroll to bottom of page)
2006 SS/Sc with 48,000 miles.
Stage II, 2.85 pulley, AIS Stage I meth kit, Clear Image long tube header and high flow cat. GMPP performance cat back, airbox mod, and one step colder plugs.


I dont care how it works, AI works. While Vince was tuning the car...we unplugged the AI...spark knock city without the AI on. Mine is set to go on about 10PSI of boost. The tune has me around 22 advanced and 19-20PSI boost. Yes, still have the 42's and stock fuel rail and fuel pump. Like I said, dont care how it works or what makes it work better, or what mod is better than AI...it works. And I can place my hand on the Supercharger after a few pulls without burning skin...actually feels cool.

 

hi dan, glad you could join the fun!

 

even if your not tuned for it...and using it as a cooling mod not so much for octane...how can something that lowers your IAT be bad for your engine or make you lose power just don't get it???

 

the phrase. "too much of a good thing" comes to mind.

there has to be a level of compensation somewhere in there. with that compensation there is always a trade off

 

lol the pleasure is all mine

 

there is some other stuff that got me intriqued so to speak. more on the math side of things. which frankly, i suck ass at.

the more i discuss things with people, the more it comes full circle as to the mysterious "why" and the "what if" theories

 

And this post is exactly why people are duped into thinking that it works. This car according to the site was making 220HP and went to 252 by adding meth. Does 220HP sound right for a modified Cobalt? Of course not. What happened was that the car had way too small of a pulley for the mods and the WI got rid of the knock, cooled the charged, whatever else and you gained back the power you lost.

You could take a bone stock Cobalt, install injectors and a 2.6" pulley and probably make a lot less power than stock. Then add WI and say WOW I gained 100HP! Does that mean WI works? Guess it depends on your definition of 'works'. To me no because the same guy could have gone to the proper pulley size and made more power still, safer than with WI. The same goes for this guy who got tricked into thinking he made 252 from 220 HP from WI. We could have taken his car, installed a larger pulley, tuned it and made more, safer w/o the WI kit.

Wrong, water will lower your HP. So much so that all else being equal your car is slower on a humid day. That is a very small amount of water decreasing your power level.

Because power is made from the explosion in your motor pushing down on the pistons. What happens when you add water to a fire? It puts it out, the explosion is less powerful and therefore the engine makes less power.

Whatever. We posted like a dozen dynos. We did mph, rpm, posted from 2k, etc. We just kept getting called out by the haters. Nothing is going to satisfy you obviously. We have a car here now getting the twin charged kit installed and we'll have customer dyno numbers soon and I'm sure another spokesperson for ZZP

People seem to think that something magical is happening when you add a secondary injection system. As if the WI is working on a different principal than fuel injection. Truthfully, the closer you get to the combustion chamber, the better any type of injection works. That’s why direct injection (like diesels use) are 10% more efficient than FI and FI is about 10 % more efficient than a carburetor. If water injection worked, you could just dump a gallon of the blue or a gallon of water in the gas tank, run a small pulley and be good (please don’t try this). There really is no need to add a secondary injection system when you have a good one already working in the car. But somehow the idea of dumping water in your gas tank sounds crazy while the idea of putting water into the intake sounds ok. Marketing for ya.

Methanol on a boosted car makes approximately 5% more HP than 93 with all things being equal. So if you have a stock cobalt at 205 and run it on 100% meth (retuning to bring the AF back to stock), the car will make about 215. This is only ˝ of the benefit though. Methanol is around 116 octane so you can add a ton of boost and timing without detonating and make even more power.

Water does not burn no matter what you do. When it evaporates, it takes up space that oxygen and fuel could be occupying. Pushing this non-flammable substance through the motor takes energy which comes from the blower. In the combustion chamber the explosion is reduced by the water which eliminates detonation. How much? Depends how much water you use. Technically you could run 200 pounds of boost without a problem if you sprayed enough water in the car. So would you make a lot of power with 200psi of boost? No, you wouldn’t because the overall force pushing down on the piston would not be high and that is what is creating power.

So what about a mix? Well, 100% meth is awesome. 100% water is horrible and somewhere in the middle it’s a wash. Where? Depends. On a turbo build, you can add boost without a penalty of driving the blower so going from 15 to 18 psi can give you 20% more HP and there is minimal loss from trying to push liquid into the engine. Because you stand to gain 20%, you can lose 5, 10, even 15% of your power from injecting water and still be ahead.
With an Eaton making 15psi, you cannot add much power by going to 18psi. Maybe 5% if you are really lucky. Then you have the losses from pushing the water through and the losses from putting water into the combustion chamber. So if you added boost to gain 5% and then lose from adding water, where are you left? With less HP.

One of the first topics with people new to Eaton blowers is “why can’t I just run a small pulley” Besides the fact that the car may blow up, people don’t understand that the added boost isn’t giving them more HP. Have you ever seen someone on here post that they have 21psi or something? Notice how their dyno or track times don’t reflect the power, they should have from that much boost? With an Eaton blower, more power is used to add boost than the motor produces from the added boost after a point. Thus, the higher the boost, the less power can be made from adding more. This is another reason why trying to add WI (unless it’s methanol) isn’t a good idea.

So why the gain? Because people don’t understand that you can make 230WHP with a stock pulley. And yes, you will make more with a 3.1 but then you will make less with a 2.8. The combination of reduced timing and the parasitic loss of driving the blower. Install WI and you get some power back, tricking people into thinking they have gains when in reality, a 3.0” pulley would have given them gains as well.

"Zoom, can you explain why putting water in your engine doesn't work"

 

crazy how those guys running small pullies run faster times with higher traps to.....

 

Bookmarked for later!

 

click

 

sshhhhhh

don't ruin the fun

when someone else gets over 300 whp out a box stock m62 on 91 octane without meth, or nitrous. i will pay attention.

 

Ok, so why do the advantages of water/meth only apply to a poor setup? This seems to be a huge contradiction to your arguement.

 

agreeded.

Like I said I dont care what,why or how it all works together. That is for you people who love to figure out why (red pill people)

I am happy with how my works and will continue in my ignorance bliss and enjoy it (blue pill people)

I dont want to be a red pill person, cause then I can never go back and enjoy the blue pill! Disadvantage to this logic...I need to pay someone to do the work

 

thats the part i find hard to believe too.
every single person finding gains has a bad setup?
seems a little convenient.

 

i don't do the numbers i do purely from magic pixie dust

 

There is so much wrong here its incredible...

For the air to be humid the air must be warmer...warmer air reduces air density..less mass in cylinder

Water on a fire is not the same as water in a combustion chamber...not even close

I did not see those dynos with rpm and from 2000rpm...care to repost em?

Your DI part is also wrong...superior fuel atomization, new piston design for DI design, fuel charge cooling, and more precise injection event control is why it makes more power.

Even tho there is more wrong I can point out I dont feel like wasting my time since you ignored most of my last post. If the rest of the forum members or you want me to I will. Maybe Ill feel fiesty and do it later just for lulz

 

i think you should do it for lawlz.

i think it would be best to just come out and put it all on the table instead of dancing around the subject.

 

its 100 year old technology,
somehow i think it would have been proven by now if it didnt work.....

 

don't tell that to the people who make tornado's, fuel catalysts, and fuel magnets.

i am a firm believer that slick 50 is good. for oil wrestling.

 

subscribed i decided not to college, i'll just read this thread, thanks for the saved money , i'm going to go order a meth kit now

 

well i agree these cars are massive heat soakers so anything thats helps cool IAT like meth it has to work...he still hasen't given any real proof that this dosen't work just a bunch of stuff i could make up on the fly..so i'm still buying one i'm sure i'll notice a difference in my 1/4 mile time