Dyno Numbers with Water/Meth Injection.
07-28-2008, 12:55 PM
#51
We aren't adding water to our engine... The water evaps before it even gets to the intake manifold. It cools the air down. Adding methanol to the mix create an octane boost, as if we are running almost a race gas... Windshield washer fluid can add power, it can have up to 40% methanol in it. Wierd that a vendor would say something like this that is completely wrong.
For instance my uncle has a GMC typhoon... 100% completely stock the only thing he added was water/meth injection with windsheild washer fluid he went from 13.92 to 13.74 consistently at the track.
For instance my uncle has a GMC typhoon... 100% completely stock the only thing he added was water/meth injection with windsheild washer fluid he went from 13.92 to 13.74 consistently at the track.
In the case of your uncle, we would need to know more about the car, runs, etc. He may have had other problems which were helped by the addition of WI that could have been fixed w/o it. Not to mention, turbos and superchargers have completely different characteristics which make comparisons like you are doing impossible. The fact that you would even try to shows you don't understand the science.
-------------------------------------------
Adding any amount of water to your engine can only lower the HP. The only way it can raise the HP is if you are running way too small a pulley already and you gain back SOME but not all of the power you lost.
This argument is really frustrating because years ago in the Grand Prix market I went through the same thing. Took me nearly 3 years to prove my point but after countless dynos and customer feedback the truth finally came out and there were tons of kits in the used section. I'm not sure if guys here will ever wise up as it's a younger crowd that seems to be taken by misinformtion a little easier. Here's a few phrases you'll hear a lot "it needs to be tuned" "water doesn't add power, it cools the charge so you can raise boost/timing to add power" "the water gets atomized before the combustion" and the list goes on. Log onto clubGP.com and search about water injection. It's like watching an old movie that you've already seen and having people argue with you about how it's going to end...
07-28-2008, 01:58 PM
#53
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No it can't and I'm willing to make the same bet I've been making for years. $1000 says your wrong and we can use my dyno for free to prove it. Put up $1000 and head over here and I will prove you wrong. This is in reference to a supercharged Cobalt.
Please don't explain how WI works, I'm quite advanced and understand the thoery and explainations given.
In the case of your uncle, we would need to know more about the car, runs, etc. He may have had other problems which were helped by the addition of WI that could have been fixed w/o it. Not to mention, turbos and superchargers have completely different characteristics which make comparisons like you are doing impossible. The fact that you would even try to shows you don't understand the science.
Professionals don't run WI. The idea is laughable if it weren't being thrown around so much. If someone tells you they are, it's to throw off the competition, which we and others do all the time in serious racing.
-------------------------------------------
Adding any amount of water to your engine can only lower the HP. The only way it can raise the HP is if you are running way too small a pulley already and you gain back SOME but not all of the power you lost.
This argument is really frustrating because years ago in the Grand Prix market I went through the same thing. Took me nearly 3 years to prove my point but after countless dynos and customer feedback the truth finally came out and there were tons of kits in the used section. I'm not sure if guys here will ever wise up as it's a younger crowd that seems to be taken by misinformtion a little easier. Here's a few phrases you'll hear a lot "it needs to be tuned" "water doesn't add power, it cools the charge so you can raise boost/timing to add power" "the water gets atomized before the combustion" and the list goes on. Log onto clubGP.com and search about water injection. It's like watching an old movie that you've already seen and having people argue with you about how it's going to end...
Please don't explain how WI works, I'm quite advanced and understand the thoery and explainations given.
In the case of your uncle, we would need to know more about the car, runs, etc. He may have had other problems which were helped by the addition of WI that could have been fixed w/o it. Not to mention, turbos and superchargers have completely different characteristics which make comparisons like you are doing impossible. The fact that you would even try to shows you don't understand the science.
Professionals don't run WI. The idea is laughable if it weren't being thrown around so much. If someone tells you they are, it's to throw off the competition, which we and others do all the time in serious racing.
-------------------------------------------
Adding any amount of water to your engine can only lower the HP. The only way it can raise the HP is if you are running way too small a pulley already and you gain back SOME but not all of the power you lost.
This argument is really frustrating because years ago in the Grand Prix market I went through the same thing. Took me nearly 3 years to prove my point but after countless dynos and customer feedback the truth finally came out and there were tons of kits in the used section. I'm not sure if guys here will ever wise up as it's a younger crowd that seems to be taken by misinformtion a little easier. Here's a few phrases you'll hear a lot "it needs to be tuned" "water doesn't add power, it cools the charge so you can raise boost/timing to add power" "the water gets atomized before the combustion" and the list goes on. Log onto clubGP.com and search about water injection. It's like watching an old movie that you've already seen and having people argue with you about how it's going to end...
A good example to do this on would be a non-intercooled roots or screw type supercharger or any centrifugal as there is a large market of users with non-intercooled systems by Vortech, Paxton, ProCharger.
I called but the women who answered said you were too busy to take the call. I'll try back later or you can call me at 1.801.447.2559 Ext 204
Rodney
07-28-2008, 02:07 PM
#54
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Whoa, whoa, whoa! E-thug'n needs to stay on the internet. You can't have a pissing match on the phone anyhow, it's shorts out the connection.
07-28-2008, 03:48 PM
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hmmm, solid info is to come, im sure.... which is fine by me, since i currently run a 30/70 mix of meth/water...wouldnt mind knowing what would be more beneficial to use as a mix 
07-28-2008, 05:55 PM
#56
The discussion was "in general" can water injection increase power. Yes. The theory that it can't isn't entirely true and I followed up by explaining many situations in which it can based on our experiences as well and why. I would be more then happy to line up a customer with a non-intercooled application in your area to take on the bet. I think this would be a great opportunity and certainly worth the money to answer this very trivial question as many other from other forums would be interested in seeing the results.
A good example to do this on would be a non-intercooled roots or screw type supercharger or any centrifugal as there is a large market of users with non-intercooled systems by Vortech, Paxton, ProCharger.
Rodney
A good example to do this on would be a non-intercooled roots or screw type supercharger or any centrifugal as there is a large market of users with non-intercooled systems by Vortech, Paxton, ProCharger.
Rodney
Bring a Cobalt, premium fuel, basic mods or stock. Running water or blue windshield washer fluid will make you lose power. And no your car won't be safer, or more efficient, or make more torque.
07-28-2008, 06:08 PM
#57
No it can't and I'm willing to make the same bet I've been making for years. $1000 says your wrong and we can use my dyno for free to prove it. Put up $1000 and head over here and I will prove you wrong. This is in reference to a supercharged Cobalt.
Please don't explain how WI works, I'm quite advanced and understand the thoery and explainations given.
In the case of your uncle, we would need to know more about the car, runs, etc. He may have had other problems which were helped by the addition of WI that could have been fixed w/o it. Not to mention, turbos and superchargers have completely different characteristics which make comparisons like you are doing impossible. The fact that you would even try to shows you don't understand the science.
Professionals don't run WI. The idea is laughable if it weren't being thrown around so much. If someone tells you they are, it's to throw off the competition, which we and others do all the time in serious racing.
-------------------------------------------
Adding any amount of water to your engine can only lower the HP. The only way it can raise the HP is if you are running way too small a pulley already and you gain back SOME but not all of the power you lost.
This argument is really frustrating because years ago in the Grand Prix market I went through the same thing. Took me nearly 3 years to prove my point but after countless dynos and customer feedback the truth finally came out and there were tons of kits in the used section. I'm not sure if guys here will ever wise up as it's a younger crowd that seems to be taken by misinformtion a little easier. Here's a few phrases you'll hear a lot "it needs to be tuned" "water doesn't add power, it cools the charge so you can raise boost/timing to add power" "the water gets atomized before the combustion" and the list goes on. Log onto clubGP.com and search about water injection. It's like watching an old movie that you've already seen and having people argue with you about how it's going to end...
Please don't explain how WI works, I'm quite advanced and understand the thoery and explainations given.
In the case of your uncle, we would need to know more about the car, runs, etc. He may have had other problems which were helped by the addition of WI that could have been fixed w/o it. Not to mention, turbos and superchargers have completely different characteristics which make comparisons like you are doing impossible. The fact that you would even try to shows you don't understand the science.
Professionals don't run WI. The idea is laughable if it weren't being thrown around so much. If someone tells you they are, it's to throw off the competition, which we and others do all the time in serious racing.
-------------------------------------------
Adding any amount of water to your engine can only lower the HP. The only way it can raise the HP is if you are running way too small a pulley already and you gain back SOME but not all of the power you lost.
This argument is really frustrating because years ago in the Grand Prix market I went through the same thing. Took me nearly 3 years to prove my point but after countless dynos and customer feedback the truth finally came out and there were tons of kits in the used section. I'm not sure if guys here will ever wise up as it's a younger crowd that seems to be taken by misinformtion a little easier. Here's a few phrases you'll hear a lot "it needs to be tuned" "water doesn't add power, it cools the charge so you can raise boost/timing to add power" "the water gets atomized before the combustion" and the list goes on. Log onto clubGP.com and search about water injection. It's like watching an old movie that you've already seen and having people argue with you about how it's going to end...
07-28-2008, 06:15 PM
#58
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No it can't and I'm willing to make the same bet I've been making for years. $1000 says your wrong and we can use my dyno for free to prove it. Put up $1000 and head over here and I will prove you wrong. This is in reference to a supercharged Cobalt.
Please don't explain how WI works, I'm quite advanced and understand the thoery and explainations given.
In the case of your uncle, we would need to know more about the car, runs, etc. He may have had other problems which were helped by the addition of WI that could have been fixed w/o it. Not to mention, turbos and superchargers have completely different characteristics which make comparisons like you are doing impossible. The fact that you would even try to shows you don't understand the science.
Professionals don't run WI. The idea is laughable if it weren't being thrown around so much. If someone tells you they are, it's to throw off the competition, which we and others do all the time in serious racing.
-------------------------------------------
Adding any amount of water to your engine can only lower the HP. The only way it can raise the HP is if you are running way too small a pulley already and you gain back SOME but not all of the power you lost.
This argument is really frustrating because years ago in the Grand Prix market I went through the same thing. Took me nearly 3 years to prove my point but after countless dynos and customer feedback the truth finally came out and there were tons of kits in the used section. I'm not sure if guys here will ever wise up as it's a younger crowd that seems to be taken by misinformtion a little easier. Here's a few phrases you'll hear a lot "it needs to be tuned" "water doesn't add power, it cools the charge so you can raise boost/timing to add power" "the water gets atomized before the combustion" and the list goes on. Log onto clubGP.com and search about water injection. It's like watching an old movie that you've already seen and having people argue with you about how it's going to end...
Please don't explain how WI works, I'm quite advanced and understand the thoery and explainations given.
In the case of your uncle, we would need to know more about the car, runs, etc. He may have had other problems which were helped by the addition of WI that could have been fixed w/o it. Not to mention, turbos and superchargers have completely different characteristics which make comparisons like you are doing impossible. The fact that you would even try to shows you don't understand the science.
Professionals don't run WI. The idea is laughable if it weren't being thrown around so much. If someone tells you they are, it's to throw off the competition, which we and others do all the time in serious racing.
-------------------------------------------
Adding any amount of water to your engine can only lower the HP. The only way it can raise the HP is if you are running way too small a pulley already and you gain back SOME but not all of the power you lost.
This argument is really frustrating because years ago in the Grand Prix market I went through the same thing. Took me nearly 3 years to prove my point but after countless dynos and customer feedback the truth finally came out and there were tons of kits in the used section. I'm not sure if guys here will ever wise up as it's a younger crowd that seems to be taken by misinformtion a little easier. Here's a few phrases you'll hear a lot "it needs to be tuned" "water doesn't add power, it cools the charge so you can raise boost/timing to add power" "the water gets atomized before the combustion" and the list goes on. Log onto clubGP.com and search about water injection. It's like watching an old movie that you've already seen and having people argue with you about how it's going to end...
Please explain why the hell ANYONE would buy WI than? Why are 100's of companies investing money towards this... WI isn't new, its old news and why would it still be around if hurts all aspects of your vehicle.
07-29-2008, 11:27 AM
#61
Adding water to your engine lowers HP. To make up for this people say "duh, WI isn't to add power, it lets you add boost and timing" well, yes it does but not enough to make up for the power lost.
Adding boost on an Eaton powered vehicle costs HP. In theory if you have 205WHP and you drop from a 3.35" pulley to a 3.0" pulley, you should gain 11.67% HP because you are moving that much more air but you don't because the blower robs more and more HP, the faster you spin it. Turbos are not like this. This is why you cannot compare a roots blower to a turbo car and if you have thought about doing so, then you need to stop talking and start listening as we are past your knowledge level.
So why are all you guys buying WI? Because the idea sounds like it would work. Similar to why people are buying kits to run their cars on 1/2 water. After all water is hydrogen and oxygen right? Same idea, some truth while withholding all of the information will trick less knowledged people. "Water will cool the intake charge" why yes it will, so will CO2 but try adding some to a car and see what happens.
Finally put your trust in me and a company with no incentive to lie and years of experience in eaton powered GM vehicles. We have a dyno, we could sell a WI kit if we wanted, we have a supercharger dyno, we do not lie about HP numbers, there is no reason I would make this up or offer $1000 challenge unless it was to benefit this community.
Last edited by Zooomer; 07-29-2008 at 01:15 PM.
07-29-2008, 11:38 AM
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im not going to argue because i know water doesn't gain power. above a certain meth/water mix you see the benefits of the octane of the meth. using water/meth mix as a cooling agent is peachy. we don't have the greatest set up. this is a given. i KNOW that it takes power to make power with the eaton. the smaller pulley, the more it takes to spin that blower to overcome the power loss. then heat becomes a factor.
you're talking to me like i don't know anything. get off that horse and come down to reality where i can show you some facts about the lsj that you don't know.
you're talking to me like i don't know anything. get off that horse and come down to reality where i can show you some facts about the lsj that you don't know.
07-29-2008, 11:58 AM
#63
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im not going to argue because i know water doesn't gain power. above a certain meth/water mix you see the benefits of the octane of the meth. using water/meth mix as a cooling agent is peachy. we don't have the greatest set up. this is a given. i KNOW that it takes power to make power with the eaton. the smaller pulley, the more it takes to spin that blower to overcome the power loss. then heat becomes a factor.
you're talking to me like i don't know anything. get off that horse and come down to reality where i can show you some facts about the lsj that you don't know.
you're talking to me like i don't know anything. get off that horse and come down to reality where i can show you some facts about the lsj that you don't know.
07-29-2008, 12:19 PM
#64
im not going to argue because i know water doesn't gain power. above a certain meth/water mix you see the benefits of the octane of the meth. using water/meth mix as a cooling agent is peachy. we don't have the greatest set up. this is a given. i KNOW that it takes power to make power with the eaton. the smaller pulley, the more it takes to spin that blower to overcome the power loss. then heat becomes a factor.
you're talking to me like i don't know anything. get off that horse and come down to reality where i can show you some facts about the lsj that you don't know.
you're talking to me like i don't know anything. get off that horse and come down to reality where i can show you some facts about the lsj that you don't know.
07-29-2008, 01:20 PM
#68
im not going to argue because i know water doesn't gain power. above a certain meth/water mix you see the benefits of the octane of the meth. using water/meth mix as a cooling agent is peachy. we don't have the greatest set up. this is a given. i KNOW that it takes power to make power with the eaton. the smaller pulley, the more it takes to spin that blower to overcome the power loss. then heat becomes a factor.
you're talking to me like i don't know anything. get off that horse and come down to reality where i can show you some facts about the lsj that you don't know.
you're talking to me like i don't know anything. get off that horse and come down to reality where i can show you some facts about the lsj that you don't know.
Does meth injection work? Of course. Turning off the fuel injectors all the way and spraying only meth would yield the best results by far. Methanol is a great fuel and used in very hi HP builds. The problem here is that the concentrations being used are way too low to see benefits outweighing the losses of putting water into the motor. Again, come down with your car and $1000. If you're right it should be an easy grand with free dyno time. Why keep debating if you are positive you're right. Just come collect your $1000.
07-29-2008, 01:29 PM
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Hey Zooomer let me ask th question then.
Pure 100% methanol ............... benifit?
80meth/20water mix ............... cooling benift with minimal hp loss?
50/50 mix ...............................Loss of power enought that timing advance from meth will not overcome the loss?
Pure 100% methanol ............... benifit?
80meth/20water mix ............... cooling benift with minimal hp loss?
50/50 mix ...............................Loss of power enought that timing advance from meth will not overcome the loss?
07-29-2008, 01:30 PM
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I'm not on a high horse or claiming to be the end all of lsj knowledge. I just happen to know a lot about eaton powered cars, and WI as it applies to this conversation.
Does meth injection work? Of course. Turning off the fuel injectors all the way and spraying only meth would yield the best results by far. Methanol is a great fuel and used in very hi HP builds. The problem here is that the concentrations being used are way too low to see benefits outweighing the losses of putting water into the motor. Again, come down with your car and $1000. If you're right it should be an easy grand with free dyno time. Why keep debating if you are positive you're right. Just come collect your $1000.
Does meth injection work? Of course. Turning off the fuel injectors all the way and spraying only meth would yield the best results by far. Methanol is a great fuel and used in very hi HP builds. The problem here is that the concentrations being used are way too low to see benefits outweighing the losses of putting water into the motor. Again, come down with your car and $1000. If you're right it should be an easy grand with free dyno time. Why keep debating if you are positive you're right. Just come collect your $1000.
Hey Zooomer let me ask th question then.
Pure 100% methanol ............... benifit?
80meth/20water mix ............... cooling benift with minimal hp loss?
50/50 mix ...............................Loss of power enought that timing advance from meth will not overcome the loss?
Pure 100% methanol ............... benifit?
80meth/20water mix ............... cooling benift with minimal hp loss?
50/50 mix ...............................Loss of power enought that timing advance from meth will not overcome the loss?
Last edited by Kibosh3; 07-29-2008 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
07-29-2008, 01:36 PM
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how about this one. explain why the laws are different for turbo engines, blower engines and NA engines. then explain what YOU think are the reasons behind why it doesn't work
it appears we are on similar pages.
please re-read what i typed.
water does not produce power.
check this **** out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_99
going from 16 degree's of timing to 25 will yield power
going from 11.3 afr to 12.4 will yield power.
id really love to see someone try this with 91 octane only and a 2.8 and smaller pulley
it appears we are on similar pages.
please re-read what i typed.
water does not produce power.
check this **** out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_99
going from 16 degree's of timing to 25 will yield power
going from 11.3 afr to 12.4 will yield power.
id really love to see someone try this with 91 octane only and a 2.8 and smaller pulley
Last edited by Area47; 07-29-2008 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
07-29-2008, 02:56 PM
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Again, you don't understand the science.
Adding water to your engine lowers HP. To make up for this people say "duh, WI isn't to add power, it lets you add boost and timing" well, yes it does but not enough to make up for the power lost.
Adding boost on an Eaton powered vehicle costs HP. In theory if you have 205WHP and you drop from a 3.35" pulley to a 3.0" pulley, you should gain 11.67% HP because you are moving that much more air but you don't because the blower robs more and more HP, the faster you spin it. Turbos are not like this. This is why you cannot compare a roots blower to a turbo car and if you have thought about doing so, then you need to stop talking and start listening as we are past your knowledge level.
So why are all you guys buying WI? Because the idea sounds like it would work. Similar to why people are buying kits to run their cars on 1/2 water. After all water is hydrogen and oxygen right? Same idea, some truth while withholding all of the information will trick less knowledged people. "Water will cool the intake charge" why yes it will, so will CO2 but try adding some to a car and see what happens.
Finally put your trust in me and a company with no incentive to lie and years of experience in eaton powered GM vehicles. We have a dyno, we could sell a WI kit if we wanted, we have a supercharger dyno, we do not lie about HP numbers, there is no reason I would make this up or offer $1000 challenge unless it was to benefit this community.
Adding water to your engine lowers HP. To make up for this people say "duh, WI isn't to add power, it lets you add boost and timing" well, yes it does but not enough to make up for the power lost.
Adding boost on an Eaton powered vehicle costs HP. In theory if you have 205WHP and you drop from a 3.35" pulley to a 3.0" pulley, you should gain 11.67% HP because you are moving that much more air but you don't because the blower robs more and more HP, the faster you spin it. Turbos are not like this. This is why you cannot compare a roots blower to a turbo car and if you have thought about doing so, then you need to stop talking and start listening as we are past your knowledge level.
So why are all you guys buying WI? Because the idea sounds like it would work. Similar to why people are buying kits to run their cars on 1/2 water. After all water is hydrogen and oxygen right? Same idea, some truth while withholding all of the information will trick less knowledged people. "Water will cool the intake charge" why yes it will, so will CO2 but try adding some to a car and see what happens.
Finally put your trust in me and a company with no incentive to lie and years of experience in eaton powered GM vehicles. We have a dyno, we could sell a WI kit if we wanted, we have a supercharger dyno, we do not lie about HP numbers, there is no reason I would make this up or offer $1000 challenge unless it was to benefit this community.
In your second part, everyone knows that there are diminishing returns on blowers when going down in size. Parasitic loss goes up exponentially as delta pressure increases linearly. If you keep the blower on the side of where the increase in airflow negates the extra drag its fine and comparable to a turbo...if you severely overspin it then it is not.
Don't forget in most of the cobalt cases you are citing a car with basic boltons or stock and at that level there is no need for extra cooling or octane. Once you start increasing the timing and/or boost there arrives a need for extra octane. You can provide that extra octane, or resistance to ignition, by multiple means being race gases or water/meth injection.
As for using CO2 as reinforcement for your water argument...its not as simple as that. Water is a polar molecule, made with different elements and in a different molecular composition. These little facts make their reactivity properties different...any entry level chemistry class will teach you that. Big thing here is that water is soluble in alcohols...where as CO2 is not.
As for trust...this is the same company that wouldn't provide full pull from below 4000rpm for their twincharger and kept the dyno chart in MPH instead of engine rpm (rpm conversion was done by mph to rpm using gear calculations...I asked for charts showing rpm in thread because i wanted to make sure numbers weren't skewed using odd factors but never received them)...but this last part is just my opinion. Why leave out the part of the curve where your kit is supposed to have the largest advantage?