Zooomer

iTrader: (1)

For air to be humid, it MUST be warmer. Your ignorance is so vast, I'm not going to bother to respond. Go research this and try and live with your embarassment.

ZZP dyno:
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/ZZP-vs-H-Dyno.jpg
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/ZZP-Cobalt-386.jpg, posted April 26

If you continue to post things like "humid air is warmer" I will continue to ignore your posts. I can't teach gradeschool concepts to everyone. and before you slam me for slamming you, you did have that coming for posting that about humidity.
Anything huh? CO2 is very cold. Try it and see how much power you add. You see, a statement like this shows that you don't understand how the entire engine system works. This is why water injection is popular. It plays on concepts that people do understand but doesn't take into account things that people don't.

For example, water is H2O. Nothing more than hydrogen and oxygen. Read up on the net and you'll see tons of sites and people buying into the idea that your car can therefore run on water. Some say directly, others try to get more technical and explain that you need a device to separate the molecules and they show you a device with electronics and bubbles separating water into hydrogen and oxygen. Seems like a great idea, and it is UNTIL you learn that it requires more energy to separate the hydrogen molecule from the oxygen than the energy you can get from burning them. Therefore the idea that was great turns out bad once you learn the science.

people are still buying electric turbos. They are sold to people who claim to notice a difference and some even have track times to prove it. They say "Even if it only adds a little" but what they don't understand is that once the engine tries to draw more cfm than the fan is putting out, the fan turns into a generator and acts like a windmill slowing down the air and causing a restriction which ultimately costs HP.

Same thing is happening here. People understand detonation, they understand cooling, lower IATs and they think they understand that adding boost and timing increases HP but they don't understand the rest of the equation. You have to understand how a combustion engine works, why it works, why adding timing makes HP, etc. someone that posts "anything that lowers your IATs works" do not understand the full equation.
Methanol and water are not related but you are trying to make them. Not to mention I already covered the difference between turbos and Eatons. Horrible post.
Everyone wants to keep talking about their setup and gains and how it works, yet no one wants to come get my $1000???
--------------
so why don't you guys tell me why you can't put a gallon of windshield washer fluid in the gas tank and race the car?

zinner

Warmer air can hold more water, hence relative humidity.

The more you heat air the more water it can hold, so yeah warmer air can contains more H20. It really depends on the amount of H20 is avalible to diffuse into the air.

Area47

::sigh::

why can't someone PROVE what they know instead of trying to flame someone else for making valid points?

if you know it's wrong PROVE IT.

djt81185

Thank you for the graphs

LOL you found the 1 point in my posts where i misused 1 word...good job...we are english majors now. Then you bash me for it...like a professional I see.

I mean your theories on meth, direct injection and others are wrong and you choose to bash me on ENGLISH.

Lol yet you tried to compare meth injection to injecting CO2 and a combustion chamber to a bonfire...and you telling me about grade school concepts?....your ignorance is amazing

I was beginning to like you guys...after seeing your "extensive knowledge" i wouldn't let you within 50 foot of my car...100 foot if you had an hpt cable in your hand

As I showed in my first post you do not completely understand the how the combustion engine works or how the fuels/chemicals used in it work as well.

And I cant take you up on that challenge because:
a. meth is worthless on a stock or near stock LSJ that you want to use...as i said in my first post...
b. my personal ion is turbo charged...

schamsy

I lost an enormous amount of respect for ZZP... your concept of this is just a theory more or less...

3fo893013L

Seriously.. This vendor arguing in a thread...annoying not to mention hurting his image in the process.

Knox

First off let me say I'm really surprised this is a supporting vendor talking this way. No matter how you cut it it's just not professional at all.

I do disagree with a lot of what is being posted and wanted to share my opinion.

I totally disagree with the following information you posted below.

"Truthfully, the closer you get to the combustion chamber, the better any type of injection works. That’s why direct injection (like diesels use) are 10% more efficient than FI and FI is about 10 % more efficient than a carburetor......"

Where are you getting your information from? Diesel's are an entirely different engine to be comparing a gasoline engine to. Don't compare FI injection from a diesel to FI on a gasoline engine and the rational behind it. I won't even go into why.

When you say more "efficient" do you mean more power or less fuel? We found out several years ago that carburetors actually have an advantage over fuel injection and that a carbureted engine "can" make more power then an EFI engine. The key benefit of using a carburetor as opposed to EFI is the charge cooling effect. Basically bringing in the fuel earlier on in the intake as opposed to right on top of the valve. i understand many on here may not be familiar with carburetted engines and why should they. Cobalts don't have them right! Anyways, I did some digging and found a quote to back up this up as it's not BS.

“Working under the laws of latent heat of evaporation, an engine equipped with a carburetor
will exhibit substantially cooler charge temperatures when it arrives at the
intake port in the cylinder head. A temperature this cool means the
cylinders are being fed a much denser oxygen charge and producing at
least 5 percent more power.” Hot Rod Magazine

You then went on to say...

If water injection worked, you could just dump a gallon of the blue or a gallon of water in the gas tank, run a small pulley and be good (please don’t try this). There really is no need to add a secondary injection system when you have a good one already working in the car. But somehow the idea of dumping water in your gas tank sounds crazy while the idea of putting water into the intake sounds ok. Marketing for ya."

Seriously. At first I was thinking you were being sarcastic. But then as I read on it seemed you were seriously suggesting water injection is as bad of an idea adding water to the gas tank. Horrible analogy which I won't bother going into any why. How come no one has already commented on this. Come on guys.

As a shop you really out to be careful about what you post because when your wrong it really looks bad.

06_SS_S/C

iTrader: (1)

you know what is really funny....

i have emailed ZZP about 5 times for replacement gaskets for my header/dp combo i ordered months ago that blew within the first week (because of aluminum washers and crappy bolts they sent with the kit)...they have probably spent hours writing all this today but i still haven't received anything from them... :\

Omega_5

... I was told to look at this thread, and all I can say is wow.
Some people need to do some research into fuelling and engine fundamentals.

I'm not going to post anything up or point out any specifics, because this is my week off, and I plan to relax instead of bicker with a bunch of bozo's.

I will, however, say that there are people who are right that posted up things that are wrong.... as well as people who are wrong that have posted up things that are right.
There are a few people that just aren't looking at the facts from the right perspective, and are make believing results that aren't really there, or aren't correct.

Area47

no facts on vendors part
check.

comparing C02 against methanol.
check, although blindly stupid.

bashing members.
check.

omega, just come out and say it.

Raven SS

failure...

Zooomer

iTrader: (1)

I understand diesels are different. They burn low octane fuel rather than explode high octane fuel like a gas engine. My point was to explain what direct injection is, not how a diesel works. Direct injection is the future and you will see cars with it soon. It is more efficient and makes more power because you can run higher compression engines with the same octane.
I think you and everyone else needs to answer this. What magic is happening with water in a separate tank that can’t happen by pouring it into the gas tank? I agree, it sounds stupid as hell which is the point of my post. WI is a really stupid idea and when worded properly people understand it’s stupid but when twisted by talking about atomizing and tuning, people think something magic is happening that allows it to work.
LOL, actually you guys are operating on the theory that it works. I’m long past that point. Again, I have nothing to gain and everything to lose here. I’m going against the entire community and have one less product to sell. But when the smoke clears I will be able to show that ZZPs knowledge is and was greater than the other vendors. Took us 3 years in the grand prix community fighting this EXACT same battle. ALL of your posts are just reruns to me. I’ve heard the ridicule, heard all the same arguments, claims of gains, gotten mocked etc. But go over to clubGP.com and ask them about WI and ZZP now. See who was right.
How many of you have a dyno to test all of your theories? How many companies selling WI own a Cobalt and a Saturn and a dyno and have a team of engineers working every day?
I didn’t say the car has to be stock, I did say that a stock Cobalt will see gains running on straight meth but for the sake of the $1000 bet, it can be mod’d any way you like as long as the M62 is the power adder.

As far as not understanding grade school concepts, I wasn’t talking about your grammar and I don’t’ even know where you screwed up. What I was mocking you on is the comment about humidity. I posted that on a humid day a car will be slower and you replied by saying that humid air is warmer. I mean this shows that you don’t even know what temperature means! How can I have an intelligent conversation with someone that doesn’t even understand that humidity doesn’t affect temperature? It’s like the guy who posted that 270WHP from one blower was different than 270WHP from another blower because of airflow and the cars need to run at the track. I mean sometimes comments are so bad that I can’t even think of how to respond. The temperature – humidity was one of them.
I’ve already proved it, years ago but you guys don’t trust me and don’t have the dyno equipment to test it yourself or the courage to come and use mine for the $1000 bet. So we’re left here arguing about whether 70 deg humid air is warmer than 70 deg dry air…roll eyes…
Here we go. ZZP didn’t answer my email so they MUST be wrong about WI, LOL. If customer service didn’t reply to 5 emails, you sent it to the wrong address. If you PM’d me about a customer service issue, you used the wrong channel. I don’t work in customer service or in shipping.
When the smoke clears there are going to be a log of ‘blindly stupid’ feeling people around here. I won’t be one of them.
Facts huh? What facts would you like? Explain the criteria for ‘facts’ and what you would like to see and what the WI guys have shown as ‘facts’.
Pretty much every research paper ever done on direct injection.
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/...02Wcbf56hRQ2N5

"Direct fuel injection is a fuel-delivery technology that allows gasoline engines to burn fuel more efficiently, resulting in more power, cleaner emissions, and increased fuel economy."
http://cars.about.com/od/thingsyoune...tinjection.htm

"The major advantages of a GDI engine are increased fuel efficiency and high power output."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_Stratified_Injection

And the new direct injection Cobalt http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/Power...cditurbo.shtml

Now go read up on direct injection, come back and apologize for mocking me and saying I don’t understand the technology. Swallow some of that pride and admit that you were wrong. If I was, I would and will do the same.

siphon_78

this thread is pretty ulgy.... I am not an expert, but what I do know is that I get ideas from what works in the past and the the "experts". It is very hard to valadate alot of people on the internet as experts because I will google something than I find it on here word for word ha ha. I am not saying I found it on this thread but there is some others that are cut and paste. I am also looking for someone out here in north carolina that knows a couple of things and has access to a dyno or hp tuners and I want to see for myself with my car how much does meth help. I've met a guy that was in california that helped out his car alot but I think I am going to have problems out here with support

Area47

how about this one. stop dancing around the ******* subject and POST what you found. all your doing is adding more fuel to this got damn fire.

all YOU are doing is taking things and turning them around on people.

someone asked a good question that you blatently avoided.

Raven SS

exactly what happened..im so confused on who's arguing which way and wtf...lol

Area47

hey zoomie

pay attention.

or im going farnsworth on you.

lsjwannabe

iTrader: (1)

If my car was running i would be on the dyno in 5 mins with a 50/50 mix and end this.

Zooomer

iTrader: (1)

Notice how no one steps up to explain the conflicting statements among you guys because you both support WI in some capacity. It's just a free for all attack against Zoom because we want to believe WI works.

Notice also, how very little is talked about methanol vs. water. They are completely different substances. One is flamable, one is not. Yet people here refer to them as if they are the same or even related.

I have to admit, it is difficult answering all the questions. You each have different misconceptions and portions of the equation you do not understand. Still I am doing my best.

so in answer to your question, it's similar to the difference between turbo and supercharger in this:
When asked the question "what makes more HP, boost or timing" well the answer is that it depends. If you already have 20 deg of timing, boost is going to help more. Timing is a diminishing point of return. So lets say you have a car with a 3.1" pulley and 18 deg of timing. If you lose or gain 1 deg of timing, you may only affect HP by 2 HP. now lets say you used a 2.5" pulley and the car has 5 deg of timing. Adding 1 deg of timing may give you 20HP. so in terms of WI, spraying enough water in the motor to add 1 deg of timing may cost you 5 HP but adding the deg of timing will give you 20, so you net 15. So that guy says WOW! WI gave me 15HP! Another guy with a 3.1 and 18 deg adds the same amount of water and goes to 19 deg of timing. he gains 2HP from timing and loses 5 from WI so he nets -3HP. That's why an improper setup gains from WI. But that guy with a 2.5" could have gone to a 2.6" instead of water and gained say 1 deg of timing (20HP) with no 5HP water loss and netted 20HP thus putting him 5 ahead of the WI guy with the 2.5". Of course this doesn't take into account the gains from spinning the blower slower or the loss from loss of boost but those are not important for this example. If that explanation is too hard to understand, please post and I'll try agian.

Except for the fact that your test would not be conducted properly and blue washer fluid doesn't contain 50% meth. In order to conduct the test properly you would have to use multiple pulley sizes, adjust timing each run as well as AF ratio.

you guys have dozens of questions and I'm going as fast as I can. To be fair, I'm one guy against an entire forum with a massive bias for you guys to want to be right. On top of that many people don't understand what temperature, boost, humidity, etc is. You guys can make quick responses to me without giving a lecture on basic conceopts but I have to post information just so people understand my posts.

Furthermore, everyone else is ignoring my questions such as why you can't pour washer fluid into your gas tank.

brett5

still the only real proof i saw was from people running untuned for meth a 1/4 mile at like 14.1 and then still untuned run with meth a 13.9....still some could be driver error but still its shows thats its at least helping not like you said hurting.

and this is from people with 3 inch pulleys ona stage 2 gm tune

brownbandit9

im going to be dynoing my 50/50 mix in week

brett5

did you notice a differnece in IAT when you installed your kit???

Area47

why does one mix water with meth?

185 degree flash point. this causes issues.

what does water do? raises the flash point so ones car does not burn to the ground.

why does one run -20 washer fluid?
easy to get.
why does one run 50/50 mix?
because it comes in a case from devils own or snow performance

why don't people run a 90/10 mix of meth and water? people are lazy. i however have a supply of methanol year round.

brett5

and how can you explain for people like ralli artist stock pulley using meth and halped out a lot

faster then most stage 2 cars

Raven SS

dont confuse driver mod for performance mods

lsjwannabe

iTrader: (1)

Zoomer the only variable that should be in the eqaution is the meth being active and the tune. Pulley size will remain constant. I will however go on just washer fluid if you would like to see that.