Zoomer i can care less what the **** you say.. i do get timing lol. Reread you lame ass post .. you state ramping timing up with rpm doesn't make the tune more aggressive. ******* really... Sure ok. Maybe in the eyes of a idiot. About your comment of me having sex with another male....I'm unsure how you are with your man friend but I'm sorry to tell you i don't swing that way. So. You need to go find you someone else. And since you wanna throw out tune files out. Is love to see them since ive seen your so called tunes as well.. woopdy ******* do.. want a Surger cookie.. no that is right you'd rather have **** lube with your man .. since you went there I am........


And zoomer not gonna lie, zzp buisness ethics are horrible lol.. if anyone has a ccss3 tune come to us and dyno free of charge. Please do so...please... Because honestly it depends on the car and the owner.. how I tuned it and why I did it that way lol........

And about your funny Ass comment . The whole ccss3 bs... Just Lulz.. we do it better hahaha.check those buisness ethics. Can you say (full of self)... I have plenty of tunes from cars you all dyno tuned and I can say **** about them as wll..

 

Lol, way to bash someone on their english when you can't even use correct grammar...

Was meant for zoomer.

 

Zoomer I'm done. You can talk all your **** its fine ... I haven't blown a engine and I have great customer service and rep.. love your parts . But hate zzp ethics and there b.s ...thanx bye

 

A tuner war on Css.net? Impossible..

 

Ethics such as PM'ing users to try and solicit business against forum rules when you were not a sponsor? Gotcha.
I'm not talking ****, I'm doing what I've done since day one on this forum to advance it. Giving out the truth, in this case pointing out that there is more to tuning than boost and timing. I never claimed your tunes were bad or that you blew up engines. I merely pointed out that we offer a more complete tune than you do and there are benefits to doing that. That is not bad business, it's good business and an honest point. I even offered to show people for free or go head to head with you. This because there are so many people who claim to be tuning gods and the general public doesn't know better w/o really getting in and understanding what is or isn't happening during an ECU recalibration.

Timing is notated in degrees. As in where the crankshaft is at when the cylinder fires. 360 deg is a circle. As the crank is coming around and the piston is coming up, it is compressing the air in the cylinder.

When you have, as example, 15 deg of timing, you are firing the spark plug when the crankshaft is 15 deg from top dead center. Another way of wording this is to say that you are firing the piston 1/4" from the top (or whatever the # turns out to be). If you fired your engine with 180 deg timing the piston would be 3.4" from the top because that's what the stroke is.

Continuing, the engine is in motion. Very fast motion. Remember how I said the spark happens 15 deg from TDC (top dead center) but this could also be called 'inches from top'? Well, you can word it another way as well. That is time until top. This would be rated in milliseconds because the piston is travelling very quickly.

---------------------------
Power is created from the combustion explosion pushing the piston down. So why do we start the explosion before the piston reaches the top when it's on it's way up? The answer is the amount of time it takes for the explosion to occur. It may seem instant but the explosion takes a few ms to happen. So we ignite it BEFORE we actually want the pressure created. No matter what rpm you are at, the explosion will expand at the same rate of speed. But, the piston is moving at a different speed depending on engine rpm. So 15 deg of timing is fine at 3k rpm because the piston speed is slow. But at 6k rpm it takes half the time for the piston to reach the top which is when you want maximum force to push the piston down and move the car.

Now, it is not as simple as doubling the timing when you double engine rpm. This for a few reasons. One is VE. The engine has a peak volumetric efficiency which is normally where peak torque is. Peak cylinder pressures are going to happen around peak torque rpm. An engine draws in more air per stroke as rpm climbs until you hit peak VE, then it goes the other way again. This is normally defined by the cam profile. The LNF has variable cams and separate intake/exhaust cams so you can actually change how this happens.

Another issue is that the explosion is virtually instant at it's beginning so adding timing means that cylinder pressures will start to climb immediately no matter what rpm the engine is at. The further the piston is from TDC, the more leverage it has on the crank as well.
---------------
So dumbing this down, what does it all mean?
It means that timing needs to change as rpm increases, (especially past mean best torque, or MBT) just to keep things effectively 'the same'.

---The above info is really just for a standard combustion engine. The beauty of the LNF is that we can control cam phasing to change VE over a wide range. DI motor add more complexity in the equation because of fueling going directly into the combustion chamber. Based on rpm, cylinder pressure, timing, you want to adjust fuel speed and timing. It's very very complicated requiring things that the average tuner doesn't have to create a matrix where all these components come together. And it's why I'm quite confident our tunes are better than this guy I'm debating with. He doesn't have the tools or knowledge to combine the variables and adjust them based on each car he's working on.

 

Wow, that was a school session right there from ZOOOMER...lol
Thanks for all the info.

I think this pissing match needs to end with you guys though. Ccss3 has great rep on here and there is no need to ruin that, but obviously you feel his tunes need to be modified. Frogstofall is agreeing with your callout, and hopefully goes through with it so people can see first hand the difference in your tunes.
Im 32 years old, and knowledgeable about cars, so I understand your statements above. I'm obviously NOT knowledgeable about tuning and the timing that goes with it, thats why I asked earlier. I feel bad, because of me asking, I started a war on here...lol...Anyways, I think ZZP has great products, and obviously is very detailed about the LNF.
Once I get my tune from another reputable tuner on here, I will get it dynoed and you can see his as well. Only difference is I am going as aggressive as i can on the stock clutch and as reliable and safe as I can as well.

 

I'm enjoying this.

People, look at the design of stock timing tables, on almost any vehicle, and you will see what ZZP is telling you. Timing increases as rpms increase to MAINTAIN power. One set timing number across the board isn't a "good" or "safe" tune, just easier to do. Timing that climbs as rpms increase or VE falls helps you carry the power out all the way to the top and make your torque curve that much flatter.

 

Infact, my tunes need no modifications. Zoomer I am not a idiot.I understand and if i did not understand somthing I have many books or even old tuning shops I used to work with i can go to for question lol .. no point in copy and paste, so you can calm your mad skills. Your ethics suck.. plain and simple.

Never said I was a tuning god, nor are you. I don't know everything, as i know you don't. I have kBt people who have dynoed and hardly lost any whp on the dyno .. frogstofall is one just to pin point. So your whole saying somthing needs work within my tune. Is false, you may think one thing but I do it for a reason.

Timing! The point I am making which it seems your still not getting is this:


Ops car, he is running a 12* max top end timing and is actually tuning less in the midrange. Boost is low , and falls to 20lbs. Can I increase all this? Yes, but op stated he doesn't want it aggressive at.all. did i dyno tune op? No.

You say increasing timing with rpm doesn't cause a tune to get any more aggressive. This is one of the key false statement you have made and its clear as day as wrong. If i were to ramp from say 14* midrange and then to a 20* up top on 93* would that make this tune conservative? No... If I were to start a midrange as 7-8* and ramp to 12* is that conservative? Last one is. Which is the whole point I am making.. I can do what ever needs be. Frogstofall midrange is 20* and ramps to 26* and this is even on winter eblend e47. .... So like I said I'm done arguing with a wall...

 

And Italian Joe, I do ramp it. Lol...

 

I know you do, as do I when I tune cars, i'm just saying as a lot of people that are coming in here that have no clue on tuning aren't really understanding what is being discussed.

 

So how's the weather Joe?

 

Was 49 outside this morning. Too ******* cold IMO.

 

I was in indianapolis last night for a tuning meet and I seen a 9* temp. Haha

 

I wish it was that warm here. I'd be putting my turbo kit in right now.

49* I mean

 

 

Lol, I had to think about that pic for a sec.

 

Lol..

 

Click

 

From my perspective, it seems as though you changed your story. You said that the power drops because you don't have much top end timing, then you verified this by saying that ramping the timing does in fact make the tune aggressive, which you didn't do. Then you stated that adding timing at the top end is like sticking your dick through a hole in the bathroom stall, and finally you state that you are in fact ramping the timing. In the end, it just does not make sense. If you are in fact ramping the timing like you recently said, then why does the power drop? Zoom's point is that you should be able to make close to the same amount of power at 6000 rpm that you do at 5000 rpm without being any more aggressive at 6000 rpm than you are at 5000 rpm. Hitting 300hp and then backing off to 250 doesn't make it less aggressive. The tune is still as aggressive as it's most aggressive point. You could argue this and say that the op will spend less time in an aggressive situation, so therefore it is safer. However, it would then make more sense to give him a tune that makes 285hp the whole time. In that case, the tune would be safer, the average power would be higher, and the clutch would have less chance of slipping, all from the same tune.

 

i think ill just stay out of this one

 

Lol you guys are trying to split hairs here now. He does whatever they want and that's it. If someone comes to you and says I want a 600hp dyno queen instead of a 400hp by 3000rpm to xxxxrpm are you going to tell them **** that we're doing what we want to do? No. You know how this works. Suppose customer asks for conservative tune and theoretically speaking lets say that means that we should be making 285 throughout the whole powerband. If said scenario is played out, and customer dynos, they're going to bawl about the tuner and state other people are making xxxhp. 90% of the lsj/lnf are cheap ass kids who are stuck on nothing but peak hp numbers instead of a usable powerband. Look at the quote below:

"Only difference is I am going as aggressive as i can on the stock clutch and as reliable and safe as I can as well."

Typical cobalt owner, I want all the power, but I want it safe cause I can't break my car (nothing personal aaron it's just a glimmering example).

Now this is all under my opinion that 300hp at 3k is not the same amount of stress etc as 300hp at 7k. I don't really believe that is a baseless argument. Claiming the opposite is kind've like saying "if I'm going 25mph and hit the telephone pole it will do the same amount of damage as going 55mph and hitting the telephone pole". .


This isn't an attack on you or zzp as a whole, just an outlook and putting things into real world perspective. I fully support you guys and you are all pretty awesome dudes who excel at what they do. Ryan and tim have helped me out more times than I can count on both hands so there is plenty of respect there. I feel that you need to get off James' nuts just because he's giving the customer what they asked for however.

 

Matt, zoomer. Seriously Gtfo.... I state I do ramp timing. And just for the instance of it just got done tuning my bnr lnf with eblend... Midrange timing of 22* at 3k to a 26* up top...... Oh yeah thats on indy fuel .... Just sayin.
Every single ******* tune I do I ramp it.... Zoomer stated the aggressivness of the tune doesn't change if the timing was ramped higher.up top when in fact it does. Get your story straight there guy.. not a attack just getting tired of the known bullshit you guys think you have to start.. you guys are not tuning gods.. and nor am I.

Thankz good bye

 

Wow, you guys come up with the worst analogies ever. It would actually be more like you saying that you will hit the pole at 55 the first time and then only hit it at 45 the next time because that is safer.

However- that doesn't matter, because now the story has changed. Initially, Zoom asked why the power drops so much up top and the response was "because there is not much timing up top." However, now it is being said that the timing is in fact ramped up at the top. Which leads to the whole point that we were trying to make. There are other factors that were overlooked.

 

That's a lot different from what you first said. In this very thread, you said that you didn't because the customer wanted it conservative.

 

We never claimed to be. However, I can honestly say that the tunes that I have seen from you were pretty cheesy. You jack up the DALs in such a way that when the driver gets to 40% pedal, the throttle body is fully open and the turbo is fully boosting. This is what makes their car "feel" really fast. You could take it further if you wanted. You could make 10% pedal open the throttle to 100% and people would be scared of your tunes because they make the car too fast. As far as the power fading up top- there are a lot of things that I can tell that you do not understand. It's not like it's a big deal because people are still happy when you give them for example 40 more average hp rather than 50 more average hp. It is also clear that they like the throttle response because it makes their car seem like it wants to go fast all the time. More than any of that, though, they like the low price. All of that is fine, but if you would admit that you could use some help and you would stop taking all of the potential customers to PM so you can talk crap about zzp to them in "private," then you could actually learn some things and improve your tuning abilities. I can assure you that you are leaving a lot on the table.