ZZP Ported Head and S1 Cam Combo Package - debunking thread
Yes, I'm here a bit late... and a tangent or three behind...
I have the blessing of the Mods to start a new thread here in order to discuss theories on whether or not ZZP's claims for HP gains on their ported head/stage1 cams make any sense to the educated consumer.
My thoughts are this ...
Why haven't they posted dyno graphs of before and after pulls on this product? If we want to make an informed decision on how they perform we can't do that with just relying on them saying "it just does". Don't tell me that these exist on this site. They don't.
The graph Matt posted in support of these claims in not a back to back test but, in fact, a comparison of pump gas to E85 on their S1 cams. They want to continue to refer to this graph as support of their claims (rediculous) but I have further issues. ...
so then you bought the cams?
did you receive a cam card??
Care to email me?
so then, from that post it reads as though it is assumed that the customer is stupid/ignorant/ect, and cannot possibly comprehend what the numbers mean, or how they will relate to other factors...
Am I the only one seeing the problem there?
I personally consider hp estimates as being completely worthless...
Even dyno graphs are nice, but considering the variation in dynos, conditions ect... they are all to be taken with a grain of salt...
I had considered their cams till it seemed to be clear that I would have to buy the cams to see the real specs on them.
This is in no way intended at a personal jab at a vendor here who has a great rep.
It's just that I for one will not spend my money on components I don't see full specs on (just look at a Comp Cams book for example)...
With that all said, I do understand reluctance to share info in fear of being copied/ect... which is an unfortunate truth about business...
Before reading this thread, I had figured I might be the only one on CSS with this opinion... then I read this;
wow....
...
ok, with that all out, I gotta say the last couple pages here are getting too of topic...
To repeat myself, I didn't post with intent to personally attack any one...
just saying...
I have the blessing of the Mods to start a new thread here in order to discuss theories on whether or not ZZP's claims for HP gains on their ported head/stage1 cams make any sense to the educated consumer.My thoughts are this ...
Why haven't they posted dyno graphs of before and after pulls on this product? If we want to make an informed decision on how they perform we can't do that with just relying on them saying "it just does". Don't tell me that these exist on this site. They don't.
The graph Matt posted in support of these claims in not a back to back test but, in fact, a comparison of pump gas to E85 on their S1 cams. They want to continue to refer to this graph as support of their claims (rediculous) but I have further issues. ...
did you receive a cam card??
Care to email me?
...
You're post illustrates a great point of why we don't always post specific numbers and sometimes discuss ranges. Consumers, such as yourself, are sometimes ignorant to how changing parts can affect their car and the HP. This is why we limit the amount of information given to avoid confusing people and work with people on their individual cars.
...
You're post illustrates a great point of why we don't always post specific numbers and sometimes discuss ranges. Consumers, such as yourself, are sometimes ignorant to how changing parts can affect their car and the HP. This is why we limit the amount of information given to avoid confusing people and work with people on their individual cars.
...
Am I the only one seeing the problem there?
I personally consider hp estimates as being completely worthless...
Even dyno graphs are nice, but considering the variation in dynos, conditions ect... they are all to be taken with a grain of salt...
I had considered their cams till it seemed to be clear that I would have to buy the cams to see the real specs on them.
This is in no way intended at a personal jab at a vendor here who has a great rep.
It's just that I for one will not spend my money on components I don't see full specs on (just look at a Comp Cams book for example)...
With that all said, I do understand reluctance to share info in fear of being copied/ect... which is an unfortunate truth about business...
Before reading this thread, I had figured I might be the only one on CSS with this opinion... then I read this;
Some times I am completely amazed at the posts on this forum. I don't know about the specific history with this product/install, but it doesn't really make any difference.
First and foremost, before and after dyno results are fairly reliable and the only thing anyone reading should pay attention to. For other than engine and drivetrain products before and after tests should also be done. All the rest is BS opinion.
98% of the "information" on this forum is of the BS opinion type, yet people here believe it, and even worse, they will quote it like gospel.
At my buddy's race shop they have hundreds or thousands of dyno graphs in their computer from the engines they have done over the years. If you want to know what products, or combination of products will provide, it's easy to see by looking at the charts. Any vendor that has a decent amount of experience should have similar data available.
The idea that someone has information on product results and won't post it because "Consumers, such as yourself, are sometimes ignorant to how changing parts can affect their car and the HP. This is why we limit the amount of information given to avoid confusing people and work with people on their individual cars," totally cracks me up.
I don't personally care one way or the other about any particular vendor on the forum, or anywhere. I would just like to see as much realistic test data as possible concerning any product.
Obviously not many people here agree with me and prefer to go by what "some guy," or some vendor told them.
Caveat Emptor, Let the buyer beware.
Dog
First and foremost, before and after dyno results are fairly reliable and the only thing anyone reading should pay attention to. For other than engine and drivetrain products before and after tests should also be done. All the rest is BS opinion.
98% of the "information" on this forum is of the BS opinion type, yet people here believe it, and even worse, they will quote it like gospel.
At my buddy's race shop they have hundreds or thousands of dyno graphs in their computer from the engines they have done over the years. If you want to know what products, or combination of products will provide, it's easy to see by looking at the charts. Any vendor that has a decent amount of experience should have similar data available.
The idea that someone has information on product results and won't post it because "Consumers, such as yourself, are sometimes ignorant to how changing parts can affect their car and the HP. This is why we limit the amount of information given to avoid confusing people and work with people on their individual cars," totally cracks me up.
I don't personally care one way or the other about any particular vendor on the forum, or anywhere. I would just like to see as much realistic test data as possible concerning any product.
Obviously not many people here agree with me and prefer to go by what "some guy," or some vendor told them.
Caveat Emptor, Let the buyer beware.
Dog
...
ok, with that all out, I gotta say the last couple pages here are getting too of topic...
To repeat myself, I didn't post with intent to personally attack any one...
just saying...
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: 12-23-09
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
Well, maybe since I actually contacted them about it I might know what Im saying lol... Do you just automatically debunk anything anyone posts? lol.. Sorry I posted in here again...
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: 12-23-09
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
You know more than most of the tweens on this forum, I'll give you that much.Regardless of that fact, it's not the way the product has been advertised on this site or theirs. That's actually an important bit of information to be left out.
I have the PM... I tried to buy the package without the tune and install it myself, you told me you wouldn't do that. If that's changed then PM me some updated info because I would be interested in it ONLY that way..
Senior Member
Joined: 03-14-09
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
From: Anna, TX
That's totally different then them telling you they have to install the whole thing at their shop. Right from the start they said they would not sell you the parts without the tune.
Well, that's the impression I was under. For the average person, how are they supposed to buy the package then get it tuned by them without going there? I would hope this isn't including a OTS type tune... If I don't have to get it installed there, what is to stop me from installing it and NOT using your tune?
I would rather hear from ZZP what the real deal is then if I have it wrong. Id like to buy the combo but just have no need to drive 12+ hrs each way to do a head swap. I originally wanted to go out there to just do the cams and change valvesprings, since it's the package only, Ill just buy the setup and swap it right out. Im a bit confused on the deal here, please PM me with some info on how I can just buy the package outright. Thanks!
I would rather hear from ZZP what the real deal is then if I have it wrong. Id like to buy the combo but just have no need to drive 12+ hrs each way to do a head swap. I originally wanted to go out there to just do the cams and change valvesprings, since it's the package only, Ill just buy the setup and swap it right out. Im a bit confused on the deal here, please PM me with some info on how I can just buy the package outright. Thanks!
Last edited by BYT*SS*TURBO; Feb 22, 2011 at 02:12 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: 02-21-06
Posts: 972
Likes: 0
From: Raceland, LA
scarab can u tell me the reason you started a css.net screen name?
do you know how cams work?
do you how an engine works period?
dont give me a wiki answer either, cuz i bet you dont know what wiki is.
just an example of how other sites sell cams.......
Comp Cams Stage II XFI VSR Camshafts (05-10 3V) - Free Shipping at AmericanMuscle.com!
do you know how cams work?
do you how an engine works period?
dont give me a wiki answer either, cuz i bet you dont know what wiki is.
just an example of how other sites sell cams.......
Comp Cams Stage II XFI VSR Camshafts (05-10 3V) - Free Shipping at AmericanMuscle.com!