huckernage

tupperware is a great thing in our live. w/o that where do you put your sandwich, in you brown paper bag. tpperware wtf lol funny tommy you R

NWAE Cobalt

iTrader: (1)

hahaha

xxxxsh4d0wxxxx

iTrader: (1)

I've been thinking about this, and I HATE beating topics to death, but..

All I'm trying to say, is that you guys are saying - "Well, if you're cammed with the 2.4 manifold/TB and all this other high end ****, then you will want a 4-1 header because you'll pull harder up high.. But, did you even step back and think, that where the 4-2-1 drops off, you will have your cams and 2.4 intake mani/TB still pulling you..? You're KILLING your low end with this 4-1 **** and hurting your track times.

huckernage

after first gear on ¼, you wont touch low end anymore. 4-1 FTW

xxxxsh4d0wxxxx

iTrader: (1)

Well.. I guess, since you and NightHawk are using your cars for track use mostly.. As a normal DD that sees the track 1 time out of the year.. I don't think it's worth it.

I do drop it a gear and get on it, on the highway, or on an open road, but that really doesn't justify it very much seeing as how you're above 5,500 RPM for a whole.. 10 seconds before you hit the brakes.

Bottom line: If you're trying to make a full track car, sure, get 4-1. An average person's DD, 4-2-1.

Racing on the street, I'd still want low/mid range. Like I said, the 2.4 intake manifold and TB will still pull you, and even more with your cams.

You'd probably see a better 60' with 4-2-1.

NWAE Cobalt

iTrader: (1)

i see what your saying, but its not like the header will make power where the rest of the mods wont. up top, the 4-2-1 header wont let you make power, it makes it drop like a rock... so it hurts you EVERYWHERE but when driving at low rpms

i see what they are saying, but i have dyno proof showing the drop at in the rpms..like, not plateu, but drop off

xxxxsh4d0wxxxx

iTrader: (1)

Yes, it will. 2.4 intake manifold, 2.4 TB, stage 2 cams. Those are all high end mods.

4-2-1 makes GREAT power from a stop to like 5,500 rpm. The other **** will keep on carrying you till redline. Guaranteed. You're ******* yourself by using a 4-1 header on-top of all that other high end **** dude, trust me.

Also, this.

huckernage

**** your DD. i prefer lost low torque when i drive as my grandma, but when someone try me here i am.

anyway with 2.4 intake and 2.4TB, u lost bottom end. add cam you lost big thing.

NWAE Cobalt

iTrader: (1)

correct

and i have REAL WORLD experiance that says that you WONT be carried through the top end by the rest of the mods....that header falls on its face up top bringing down the ability of the rest of the mods

huckernage

L'aigle de nuit is my twin brother ecotec ****

L'aigle de nuit is your nick translated. is that ok for you L'aigle de nuit

NWAE Cobalt

iTrader: (1)

i have no idea what youve just said

huckernage

hahaah 100% that would happen


i m silly but try to make some joke.

xxxxsh4d0wxxxx

iTrader: (1)

Okay, I know 2.4 intake manifold and 2.4 TB make you lose low end.. And cams make you lose more.

SO WHY THE **** DO YOU WANT TO ACCENTUATE TO THE LOSS WITH A 4-1?!

I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but you sound like one, uneducated, arrogant **** by making that statement. It's not all about HP. You're getting probably 2HP more up top with a 4-1 than you would like a 4-2-1, and you're ******* yourself with power lost under the rest of the curve.

Let's see real world experience. I want a dyno sheet. I am not saying Maven knows everything, but I have learned a lot from him, and I have been learning more about how exhaust manifolds affect motors, and I can tell you, you're barking up the wrong tree.

NWAE Cobalt

iTrader: (1)

i already posted it lol, shows the power nose dive at 5500ish rpms lol
talked with dan about it too, (clear image) and he said that is what that header will do, it will plateu or nose dive at that rpm.
if you want real power you want a 4-1 header and if you want real power you want a long tube 4-1 header

basically the reason you want to loose more down low is becase you wont really use it....youll never be there. and why try to add back to be middle of the road down low and then sacrifice up top (letting yor other mods try to carry the power) and be middle of the road there too. why not take what you know is your existing power band and add more power to it so all the power is usable

xxxxsh4d0wxxxx

iTrader: (1)

First off, power dropping off at 5,500 rpm is hardly what I would render "unusable". I know Dan said it will drop off around 5,500.

"If you want real power"..? Like I said dude, you really should pick up a book on how exhaust manifolds and how they flow exhaust gases, and the effect it has on the motor, because either you heard from a moron, or you're drawing made up claims. You will not make more than 4HP with a 4-1 verses a 4-2-1 on these motors, guaranteed. You are shifting the power band, that does not mean you're gaining power, just because the 4-2-1 drops off after 5,500..

You do use down low, well, beside you and hucker, because you guys are building drag cars, but for 90% of this site, you're going to want 4-2-1.

"Why try to add back down low and mid-range"..? Because you already have many high end mods, why would you want to add to the loss, of your already bad, low-end and mid-range? I know you're trying to build on the strong points, but, like I said, it is not all about peak HP. That is not power. Last time I checked, most people do not race on a dyno.

And just FYI, I am in no way trying to start a war/argument/etc.

huckernage

you know what you are the most intelligent. i give it to you.

i run a lsj header. this is ****.

dont want buy for now.

but if i want a HD and DP it gonnna be a 4-1 because i know it more effecient in higher peak.

i did ¼ 4 time last year.

but low end and mid range doesnt mean nothing. my flywheel compensate. faster rpm

i never race in low end mid range. i always gear to be midhigh range 5000+

NWAE Cobalt

iTrader: (1)

all im saying is when you buy things like cams, you are accepting the loss down low, by adding power there and sacrificing up high you are playing to your weaknesses and making less USABLE power. i agree that its not all about peak hp, but you have to understand, the header doenst give me enough before 3500rpm (nor do i use it) to justify having a roughly 2k rpm power band (3500-5500) when i could easily make power all the way to 7500+rpm...to me, loosing that low end even more is WELLLLLLL worth gaining another 2k rpm worth of power band. also, the way i have it setup, i get 40-45mpg on the freeway cause im out of that power band, its way more then enough to use getting the car a-b, but i want power where i can most use it, on the strip or the street.

if we were to look at the usable power band (more or less the total area underneath the graph on a dyno...aka square inches or what not) we would find that with these mods (cams, bigger tb, bigger intake mani, etc) you will make more usable power throughout the power band then if you were to loose the power up to top to make 1-2 down low....

it just doesnt make sense if you are going for a fast car like this to use th 4-2-1, your crippling yourself.
and let me say, and im sure hucker will agree - once you make the commitment such as cams and head work, etc in this car, you are no longer looking for an all around comfortable/ race sometimes car...you are commiting to making as much usable power as possible and part of that is using the right parts to play to that hand.




you are right, for most of this forum, the 4-2-1 will be great, but for anyone wanting to get the most out of it a long tube 4-1 header will be the best route....

ill let the butt dyno tell you after i test it out tonight....

huckernage

in my case my setup is not that uncomfortable

SSSC catback is now on my car and i accept the cam sound on idle. nothing change for me


nighthawk as a way louder than me. but this is a choice and where you live


if NH was living in lévis, quebec, canada here a cop for him. mr Larose is the worst of the worst

NWAE Cobalt

iTrader: (1)

mine isnt uncomfortable per say...but def not "take grandma to dinner" comfy

huckernage

grandma says sound like my first car in 1940.

is your car right my favorite little son

NWAE Cobalt

iTrader: (1)

lulz

your not running solid engine mount or poly tranny mounts are you????

huckernage

poly tranny mounts yes

torque bamper yes

solid engine mount no

poly control arm yes

xxxxsh4d0wxxxx

iTrader: (1)

You are right, no doubt a 4-1 is more efficient for the drag racing you do, I do not deny that.

4-2-1 isn't giving you quicker rev's, it's giving you more HP and TQ down low and mid, it has nothing to do with building rev's quicker.

For your setup, and your car doesn't seem the DD type, yes, I would pick a 4-1.

You're on the wrong track for the whole "usable" power thing man. Last time I checked you spend more time getting from 800 to 5,500 RPM, than from 5,500 to 7,500. Numbers speak for themselves.

It's not even the peak HP either, you're only making 2HP more, if that, it has been restated many times before. You're just shifting the power band. The power band for a 4-2-1 is the second you stomp it till around 5,500.. Not 3,500 to 5,500. It will build HP and TQ faster than a 4-1 till around 5,500. Guaranteed.

You will not lose much power up top with a 4-2-1, it is not worth losing the low/mid over 2HP and a little more pull. You've got cams, 2.4 TB and intake manifold already.

Because, now that you've piled up every high-end mod on the market, and what do you have? 1) A turd off of the line. 2) A dyno queen. 3) A track car that only makes peak power after "X" RPM.

You want high end, yes, we all do, but you don't want to sacrifice EVERY piece that goes on the car for a counterpart that gives more high end.

TQ damper is not a good idea, I would get a solid motor mount.

And instead of poly control arm, I would have got spherical ones.

huckernage

that will kill your DD.
have you try a 2.2 with a flywheel in? you should add this to your ckeck list

xxxxsh4d0wxxxx

iTrader: (1)

What will kill my DD? No, I have not tried a flywheel in it.

However, you are not gaining any hp with a lightweight flywheel. Think of it as freeing up hp, like a lightweight pulley.